[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

People actually use the knock down rules?

Indeed... We use them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Neraph]

IIRC You allready gave me some good Ideas (the Headless Murdercycle was Your Idea ,right)
and I'm looking forward to it(especially for my Hobbit Dronomancer)

HeyaheyaHeya
Medicineman

Technically I only called it the Mudercycle. My contact info is in my sig if you want the notepad I have of all my goodies.

[CanRay]

Why am I getting an image of Nathan Explosion on the Dethcycle?

[Dakka Dakka]

I do. It's not just that the simple action to stand can make a difference. It's that getting knocked down helps tell the story.

"He hit you for 8"
"The troll hammers you, slamming you to the ground."

Not sure, what you are trying to say, but the knockdown rules say you compare the damage boxes checked off on the condition monitor against BOD not the DV of the attack.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not sure, what you are trying to say, but the knockdown rules say you compare the damage boxes checked off on the condition monitor against BOD not the DV of the attack.

Applied DV is Boxes Checked. Very Different from Proposed DV, which is potential damage inflicted. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Kirk]

Not sure, what you are trying to say, but the knockdown rules say you compare the damage boxes checked off on the condition monitor against BOD not the DV of the attack.

Sorry for not being clear by distracting you with numbers.

I much prefer cues for storytelling, of which knockdown is one. And frankly the rule is easily applied. You took damage equal to or greater than BOD you get knocked down. Not complex at all. So:

"You took 8 damage."
"You get hammered to the ground by the troll, taking 8 damage."

The latter is more evocative. More narrative. Drives the story just a little better.

[Yerameyahu]

Ignoring the Knockdown rules just weakens Body further; seems like a bad idea. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Saint Hallow]

Hmm... regarding body & strength... page 51 of Arsenal says you can add a Strength modification to your armor. This modification is servos, hydraulic pumps, etc...

Does this mean that this armor upgrade or modification is only available to obvious, heavy armors, or can this be added to the armored clothes like the Auctioneers Business suit?

[Seerow]

Hmm... regarding body & strength... page 51 of Arsenal says you can add a Strength modification to your armor. This modification is servos, hydraulic pumps, etc...

Does this mean that this armor upgrade or modification is only available to obvious, heavy armors, or can this be added to the armored clothes like the Auctioneers Business suit?

Pretty sure those are armored suit upgrades, for stuff like military grade armor.

[Saint Hallow]

I am likely to agree as the fluff & the location of the enhancement has it under military armor. Just thought I double check to make sure & wait for the obligatory RAW reference. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Critias]

I am likely to agree as the fluff & the location of the enhancement has it under military armor. Just thought I double check to make sure & wait for the obligatory RAW reference. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yeah, they're specifically listed under the heading (and then under the table) Military-Grade Armor Enhancements, where it then states "Military-grade armors accept a wide variety of enhancements that are not available to other armor types," all right there in Arsenal, p. 51, where you spotted it. It's pretty clear-cut.

[hermit]

But hermit is talking about removing the majority of that benefit, with no compensation, and saying Body is still a great stat. I say BS.

Well, it certainly will stop being what you consider a great stat, as in, the be-all end-all of stats in terms of survivability. That's the point. It still is a viable stat you will use more often than some others (like charisma, willpower), unless your character is some specialist build.

[CanRay]

Body is what keeps you going when your brain is telling you, "Hey, Bob, YOU'RE DEAD!".

[Seerow]

Well, it certainly will stop being what you consider a great stat, as in, the be-all end-all of stats in terms of survivability. That's the point. It still is a viable stat you will use more often than some others (like charisma, willpower), unless your character is some specialist build.

Actually, no, it becomes a stat that you would never invest in. Ever. Seriously, 1 extra damage resistance die isn't worth the cost that an attribute entails. Body instantly becomes the most worthless karma sink in the game, at least Willpower is going to be wanted for mages to be able to use their abilities regularly. Body? Who cares? Just grab some agi and armor it up.




That said I did think of a solution (which I posted in the 5e thread a day or so ago): Body and Willpower become derived stats, rather than full on attributes. Body is the average of Str+Agi+Reaction, and Will is the average of Log+Int+Cha. That way nobody actually has to invest karma for a stat that is just an extra die of damage resist. As you improve your physical body, you naturally become more hardy. As you improve your mental facilities, you naturally become more willful.

Armor can either go on being based on the new derived body, or it can be moved to agi/str (if moving it, I'd recommend str. Agi is already used for basically everything and the kitchen sink, while strength has relatively few linked skills, and could use something secondary to give it a bit more value to people who aren't intending to mix it up in melee.)

[pbangarth]

That said I did think of a solution (which I posted in the 5e thread a day or so ago): Body and Willpower become derived stats, rather than full on attributes. Body is the average of Str+Agi+Reaction, and Will is the average of Log+Int+Cha. That way nobody actually has to invest karma for a stat that is just an extra die of damage resist. As you improve your physical body, you naturally become more hardy. As you improve your mental facilities, you naturally become more willful.

Not that any real life example means anything in Shadowrun, but I am living proof that LOG and INT and CHA can all be high but WIL be pitifully low. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Seerow]

Not that any real life example means anything in Shadowrun, but I am living proof that LOG and INT and CHA can all be high but WIL be pitifully low. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Well what do you define WIL as?

Because remember, in Shadowrun WIL is basically "Use this to resist magic, and for astral combat" Which generally isn't something that comes up in real life.


edit: Besides, worst case you could introduce a set of flaws: Weak Willed and Frail Body, which reduce the Will/Body respectively by 1/2/3 to represent that for someone who has it as a part of their character concept.

[Kirk]

Actually, no, it becomes a stat that you would never invest in. Ever. Seriously, 1 extra damage resistance die isn't worth the cost that an attribute entails. Body instantly becomes the most worthless karma sink in the game, at least Willpower is going to be wanted for mages to be able to use their abilities regularly. Body? Who cares? Just grab some agi and armor it up.




That said I did think of a solution (which I posted in the 5e thread a day or so ago): Body and Willpower become derived stats, rather than full on attributes. Body is the average of Str+Agi+Reaction, and Will is the average of Log+Int+Cha. That way nobody actually has to invest karma for a stat that is just an extra die of damage resist. As you improve your physical body, you naturally become more hardy. As you improve your mental facilities, you naturally become more willful.

Armor can either go on being based on the new derived body, or it can be moved to agi/str (if moving it, I'd recommend str. Agi is already used for basically everything and the kitchen sink, while strength has relatively few linked skills, and could use something secondary to give it a bit more value to people who aren't intending to mix it up in melee.)

Been pondering your solution. It's got possibilities.

The first sticking point comes when metas are considered. Troll getting body by virtue of strength? sure. So, however, do orks and dwarves. And what bothers me slightly more is that it means all elves are by nature of their charisma slightly more strongwilled than everyone else. not sure it's wrong, mind, just it bothers me for some reason.

The second sticking point comes from the math. The first subpoint of that is determining the break which will inevitably be gamed. Always round up? Always down? Always to the nearest? And lest we forget, the second subpoint regards increasing body and will. While automatic it would almost always require at least two attribute increases. One might argue you're getting a bargain, paying for two and gaining three, but it still can raise arguments.

I like the basic idea, to be honest. I just want the potential problems recognized and either dismissed or dealt with.

[Traul]

Because remember, in Shadowrun WIL is basically "Use this to resist magic, and for astral combat" Which generally isn't something that comes up in real life.

And resist addiction, temptation, fear, compulsion,... WIL is used in a lot of compound attribute tests.

[Seerow]

Been pondering your solution. It's got possibilities.

The first sticking point comes when metas are considered. Troll getting body by virtue of strength? sure. So, however, do orks and dwarves. And what bothers me slightly more is that it means all elves are by nature of their charisma slightly more strongwilled than everyone else. not sure it's wrong, mind, just it bothers me for some reason.

This I don't mind so much. Elves are traditionally spellcasters, I don't mind them having a slightly above average Will. Orcs and Dwarves gaining a little extra body isn't outlandish... Orcs already have a +3 body right now, so they'd actually be losing effective body (gaining 2/3 of a body point rather than 3 full points). Similarly, Dwarves currently get 1 body, now they just have +2 strength -1 reaction, resulting in a net +1/3 body.


Actually now that I'm thinking about this, since the solution was proposed with regular humans in mind let's go through each race and see what type of adjustment they end up with for body/will:

Human:
-Body: +0 (+0 normal)
-Will: +0 (+0 normal)
Ork:
-Body: +2/3 (+3 normal)
-Will: -2/3 (+0 normal)
Dwarf:
-Body: +1/3 (+1 normal)
-Will: +0 (+1 normal)
Elf:
-Body: +1/3 (+0 normal)
-Will: +2/3 (+0 normal)
Troll:
-Body: +1 (+4 normal)
-Will: -4/3 (+0 normal)

So basically everyone except for Elves come out behind where they normally are. This would mean needing to either reassign metahuman attribute bonuses, or reassign the BP costs, or some other off the wall solution (like allowing metahuman bonuses/penalties to apply directly to Body/Will, despite being derived)

The second sticking point comes from the math. The first subpoint of that is determining the break which will inevitably be gamed. Always round up? Always down? Always to the nearest? And lest we forget, the second subpoint regards increasing body and will. While automatic it would almost always require at least two attribute increases. One might argue you're getting a bargain, paying for two and gaining three, but it still can raise arguments.

That's a good point. Personally, I'd go in favor of always round down, but I'd be open to arguments for any rounding method.

[Draco18s]

I'd say round normally. 1/3 -> 0, 2/3 -> 1.

[pbangarth]

And resist addiction, temptation, fear, compulsion,...

Pretty much this.

[Yerameyahu]

Heavy Gear (Silhouette, SilCORE) has something like that. Health and 'mental health' are both based on combinations of more fundamental physical stats.

[Neraph]

So basically everyone except for Elves come out behind where they normally are. This would mean needing to either reassign metahuman attribute bonuses, or reassign the BP costs, or some other off the wall solution (like allowing metahuman bonuses/penalties to apply directly to Body/Will, despite being derived)

Which is why, while conceptually alluring, I won't be using this system.

[hermit]

Actually, no, it becomes a stat that you would never invest in. Ever. Seriously, 1 extra damage resistance die isn't worth the cost that an attribute entails. Body instantly becomes the most worthless karma sink in the game, at least Willpower is going to be wanted for mages to be able to use their abilities regularly. Body? Who cares? Just grab some agi and armor it up.

Because Agi is so much cheaper? Also, what does someone who neither is dedicated face nor mage with a Cha drain tradition want with Charisma?

Also, Willpower is only relevant for spellcasters or people really paraoid about mana spells. And even then, you can just pop some drugs. Will not cost you any Karma.

Plus, Body goes up a lot for everyone who is a troll or dwarf. Maybe switch Athletics back to body, instead of strength, for good measure. But certainly not what you suggested, that's ridiculously overpowering Body again. As is, Body and Rea are the only attributes that matter for a dedicated fighter. Which sucks. And armour is all but useless for anyone who is not a troll, which sucks even more.

That said I did think of a solution (which I posted in the 5e thread a day or so ago): Body and Willpower become derived stats, rather than full on attributes. Body is the average of Str+Agi+Reaction, and Will is the average of Log+Int+Cha. That way nobody actually has to invest karma for a stat that is just an extra die of damage resist. As you improve your physical body, you naturally become more hardy. As you improve your mental facilities, you naturally become more willful.

That's hard to make work, though the basic idea isn't that bad. There're Wil drain traditions, what about them?

Making Body a derived attribute could be doable, though. However, I'd rather just move encumbrance to str+agi, and reassign the Athletics group to Body, so it has a very viable linked skill.

[Seerow]

Because Agi is so much cheaper? Also, what does someone who neither is dedicated face nor mage with a Cha drain tradition want with Charisma?

All attributes cost the same. But your example of agi is easily augmented, which Body is not. Besides that, agi IS worth the points because it has a lot of linked skills, and is the driving attribute for almost all combat skills. Getting a bonus to a bunch of key skills vs getting a bonus to a damage resistance is a pretty huge difference. Especially if you make armor tied to a stat everyone wants anyway, so then everyone has plenty of armor, making an extra die or two worth less.

You're complaining saying "Who outside of this specialty wants this stat" while not thinking "Would someone who specializes in taking damage even care about getting body?" The answer is no. Because they get enough survivability from armor and other gear, that body is just a huge waste of karma, they're better off investing in reaction instead so they just flat out get hit less.

Also, Willpower is only relevant for spellcasters or people really paraoid about mana spells. And even then, you can just pop some drugs. Will not cost you any Karma.

Other people have already pointed out where Willpower comes into play with other tests even for non-mages.

Plus, Body goes up a lot for everyone who is a troll or dwarf. Maybe switch Athletics back to body, instead of strength, for good measure. But certainly not what you suggested, that's ridiculously overpowering Body again. As is, Body and Rea are the only attributes that matter for a dedicated fighter. Which sucks. And armour is all but useless for anyone who is not a troll, which sucks even more.

Huh? Define a dedicated fighter. If you mean a ranged combatant, they want Reaction and Agility. If you mean a melee fighter, they want Reaction, Agility, AND strength.

That's hard to make work, though the basic idea isn't that bad. There're Wil drain traditions, what about them?

All mages use Will as a part of their drain. Tradition determines the second attribute that gets added. You use the new derived Will. It might be a slight nerf to Mages, but it's not like they couldn't use being taken down a peg.

Making Body a derived attribute could be doable, though. However, I'd rather just move encumbrance to str+agi, and reassign the Athletics group to Body, so it has a very viable linked skill.

And now strength has no linked skills. And encumbrance is based on the most useful stat for a non-magician combatant. How is this an improvement?