[X] My Assistant

[Draco18s]

But, it made Perfect Sense according to the rules as they are written.

And as we all know, the rules make complete and perfect logical sense the way they are written. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

(See, that's not angry, it's sarcasm)

[Seerow]

I'd like to point out to everyone Draco ISN'T the one who originally posted complaining about suoq responding using WAR!. That was someone else entirely. Draco only really responded to 2 things: 1) Why he thought it was cheesy and 2) Saying that having 4-5 body is required if you want to not die in combat is kind of silly.


The thing that is being attributed to Draco being angry really seems to be that first response going "OMG WHY DID YOU BRING WAR INTO IT!" which wasn't Draco at all...

[Neraph]

what about the Exoskeleton from Attitude ?
I don't own the Attitude (yet ,because I'm waiting for the German Lifestyle 2073) but I remember a discussion here that it can be Armored up

HokaHey
Medicineman

I don't own it yet either, but when I do own it you'll know because I'll be posting super-awsome builds with it.

[Draco18s]

I'd like to point out to everyone Draco ISN'T the one who originally posted complaining about suoq responding using WAR!. That was someone else entirely. Draco only really responded to 2 things: 1) Why he thought it was cheesy and 2) Saying that having 4-5 body is required if you want to not die in combat is kind of silly.


The thing that is being attributed to Draco being angry really seems to be that first response going "OMG WHY DID YOU BRING WAR INTO IT!" which wasn't Draco at all...

Thank you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

As I've said before, unless you specify otherwise, most people on the forums will assume you are talking about any and all of the rules as written, not houserules or home campaign restrictions.

If you want houserules, it is a good idea to specify that up front.

If you're discussing a home campaign and that campaign has restrictions like X item or rule not being allowed, it is a good idea to specify that up front.

If you are presenting either as a response, if it a good idea to specify that up front.

This will generally avoid a lot of confusion later on.




-k

[Medicineman]

I don't own it yet either, but when I do own it you'll know because I'll be posting super-awsome builds with it.

IIRC You allready gave me some good Ideas (the Headless Murdercycle was Your Idea ,right)
and I'm looking forward to it(especially for my Hobbit Dronomancer)

HeyaheyaHeya
Medicineman

[Draco18s]

As I've said before, unless you specify otherwise, most people on the forums will assume you are talking about any and all of the rules as written, not houserules or home campaign restrictions.

If you want houserules, it is a good idea to specify that up front.

If you're discussing a home campaign and that campaign has restrictions like X item or rule not being allowed, it is a good idea to specify that up front.

If you are presenting either as a response, if it a good idea to specify that up front.

This will generally avoid a lot of confusion later on.

If this is directed at me, then here, here's my first reply to this thread that started this whole "Draco is getting angry" thing:

Because they stack?

This was directed at a quoted section of text asking "why is one piece cheesier than the other?"

Also, my group considers FFBA to be cheese, along with PPP.

This was a blatant "this is what my group does."

(And besides, if the low-body character cheeses with FFBA/Softweave, then the high body troll will too, and so will the opposition, and in the end he'll end up back where he started: not enough armor, only now it'll feel like everyone is using Nerf guns).

This was an aside pointing out how it doesn't matter if one guy cheeses his armor to max, everyone else will see how Good of an Idea that is, and Do It Too, and it will only ruin the game experience.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This was an aside pointing out how it doesn't matter if one guy cheeses his armor to max, everyone else will see how Good of an Idea that is, and Do It Too, and it will only ruin the game experience.

But it is interesting to note that you immediately assume that it will ruin the gaming experience for all involved. It doesn't. In fact, we use FFBA, PPP, and Softweave, and the Armor usage has not skyrocketed because of it, as you insist it must. Not everyone is out there trying to get the most awesome and overpowereed character they can for their expenditure. All of the above add options. Options are not cheesy, in and of themselves, even if they do stack. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

But it is interesting to note that you immediately assume that it will ruin the gaming experience for all involved. It doesn't. In fact, we use FFBA, PPP, and Softweave, and the Armor usage has not skyrocketed because of it, as you insist it must. Not everyone is out there trying to get the most awesome and overpowereed character they can for their expenditure. All of the above add options. Options are not cheesy, in and of themselves, even if they do stack. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The question is:

Why?

What prevents your players from wanting more armor?

[Seerow]

The question is:

Why?

What prevents your players from wanting more armor?

It's TJ. I'm pretty sure he's the guy whose groups never start with any skill rating above 3, and rarely have stats exceeding 5-6, and a dicepool of 12 is amazing like woah. He and his group play things low powered, and they prefer it that way. Don't try to question it with logic, it really won't get much of anywhere.

[Traul]

First question: how low-profile do you want this armor to be? Full body FFBA is not concealed because it includes a hood and gloves, so you will get different answers depending on whether you want something to wear on the streets or during runs only.

[KarmaInferno]

If this is directed at me,

I was pretty much directing it at everybody. This isn't the first time confusion has set in over what exactly is being discussed.




-k

[Draco18s]

It's TJ.

Oh right, I forgot. TJland where RAW runs perfectly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[yesferatu]

I guess I'm looking for non-house rule stuff that could pass in most situations.
I'm not going to hit the Stuffer Shack in a chameleon suit.

So far, it looks like I'm going to have to mod my gear or max out around 10/6.
I don't see why my character, or really most runners, would have access to full-on military tech.
Without serious armorer connections, I don't think I'd have access to most of the obscure gear.

Thanks, most of you.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's TJ. I'm pretty sure he's the guy whose groups never start with any skill rating above 3, and rarely have stats exceeding 5-6, and a dicepool of 12 is amazing like woah. He and his group play things low powered, and they prefer it that way. Don't try to question it with logic, it really won't get much of anywhere.

Never said they were low powered. In actuality, the chracters start with "Appropriate" levels in skills. You can only have so many Legendary characters after all. If you think that the character is "Professional" level, then he has a 3 in that skill, not a 6. Skills run the normal gamut, 1-4, with a few 5's or a 6. Stats run the gamut, of course, from 2's to 9's for humans, dependant upon Ware and whatnot. Now, that being said, average dice pools are in the 12-15 range for primary abilities, and 8-12 range for Secondary and Tertiary. Some pools are as low as 3-7 dice, dependant upon character. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The reasoning is simple. The game world assumes a certain level of expertise (regardless of whether or not others actually agree with that, is is pretty irrefutable), and ALL contacts and NPC's are designed with that in mind. So why, exactly, would a character need 2-3 times the dice pool of their opposition? There is absolutely no reason for that, other than to have no chance of failure. Read a book or two like that. BORING... If you keep the fluff of the world in mind, then you do not need Dice Pools in the 20-50's, people can only be so dead, coerced, or whatever. There is just no reason to do so. Mid to high teens is more than adequate. This is completely born out by the Optional Rule for Dice Pool Caps. Since it is really difficult to get Natural Skil/Attribute combinations above 14 (6+7 for Humans is only 13 after all), 26 Dice is usually the Maximum you should ever see if you are using that optional rule.

We have had characters that exceed that norm. Interestingly enough, they are generally the ones that DO NOT survive. For whatever reason. In some cases, it is because they are so hyperspecialized that they are non-functional outside of their specialty. For the one or two that chose to wear 20+ Armor, they sucked up all the firepower, as they became the biggest threat on the board. As such, they died as the biggest threat on the board.

And Draco18s. It is not about Wanting more armor, it is about Needing more armor. The need is just not there if you take appropriate precautions. And again, with Body 3, Strength 2 characters, An Armored Longcoat, Softweave, FFBA and a piece of PP is more than enough for most situations (10/6 right?). You want to survive the Gauss Round, or the LMG on FA, just don't get hit.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Oh right, I forgot. TJland where RAW runs perfectly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Nope... RAW is not perfect, as we all know. We just do not have a lot of players who enjoy breaking the game. Shadowrun has a detailed world with very established parameters. We stick within those parameters. We do not complain that the Skills are just broken as hell because we cannot get 12 ranks in a Skill. We do not complain when you can only wear 2x your Body in Armor. Etc... When you try to break the world, well, the world breaks. When you have players that play within the scopes of the game, then the game runs smoothly for all... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

All of the edge cases that I see complained about here on the forums are generally not an issue with us, because we stay away from those edges. It is really that simple.

Many may not like that, but it is true nonetheless. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

You want to survive the Gauss Round, or the LMG on FA, just don't get hit.

The rules shouldn't allow for anything else (excepting vehicles and people inside vehicles) other than this.

And again, with Body 3, Strength 2 characters, An Armored Longcoat, Softweave, FFBA and a piece of PP is more than enough for most situations.

What's the Body 7, Strength 5 character wearing, the same thing? Because your Bod 3/Str 2 character has already cheesed it to the max in order to get up to...10/10? 12/10?

I agree that 12/10 armor is plenty, the problem lies in the fact that by allowing the things that get the low-body characters to get there allow the tank characters to, well, tank. With more armor than a tank.

The rules problem lies in the fact that in order to resist damage you roll body + armor and body limits armor (each point of body gives 2.5 dice worth of damage resistance dice, not counting extra cheese, which makes it closer to 1 point of body is 4 dice: the more damage resistance you have, the more you get!).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The rules shouldn't allow for anything else (excepting vehicles and people inside vehicles) other than this.

What's the Body 7, Strength 5 character wearing, the same thing? Because your Bod 3/Str 2 character has already cheesed it to the max in order to get up to...10/10? 12/10?

I agree that 12/10 armor is plenty, the problem lies in the fact that by allowing the things that get the low-body characters to get there allow the tank characters to, well, tank. With more armor than a tank.

The rules problem lies in the fact that in order to resist damage you roll body + armor and body limits armor (each point of body gives 2.5 dice worth of damage resistance dice, not counting extra cheese, which makes it closer to 1 point of body is 4 dice: the more damage resistance you have, the more you get!).

I have a character with Body 7... he is Sporting about 11/11 Armor (No Softweave). Again, why should I want more; I don't often get hit. Who cares what the Low body character has to do to wear that armor. The point is that the Troll does not have to do the same thing to survive.

I see no problems with the rules. But, in your point above, should not the tougher person be tougher to hurt (as you said: the more damage resistance you have, the more you get). I'm Seeing no issue here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Miri]

Usually when one or two characters are sporting a really really high offense or defense value I think it makes balancing an encounter more difficult. Lets say you do have your street sam with 20+ armor and high body. In order for a bad to hurt him he needs to get hit by pretty a Gauss rifle round or that LMG on FA.. but if either of those items get turned on anyone else they will get red misted. If that street sam/mage is dropping 20 something dice for an attack and red misting the critters in one action then the GM has to either throw more at them or make them harder to hurt. Which in turn makes things really tough and boring on the guy with an Ares Slivergun.

Keeping pools on stuff done as a group can make things easier for the GM to build and improvise around then for something the character specializes in and or does on his own he can be sporting more dice then a non specialized.

[Seerow]

I have a character with Body 7... he is Sporting about 11/11 Armor (No Softweave). Again, why should I want more; I don't often get hit. Who cares what the Low body character has to do to wear that armor. The point is that the Troll does not have to do the same thing to survive.

I see no problems with the rules. But, in your point above, should not the tougher person be tougher to hurt (as you said: the more damage resistance you have, the more you get). I'm Seeing no issue here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It seems like the problem here is everyone agrees that having more than 10-12 armor is pretty over the top, but not having more armor than that makes having a high body pretty useless, since the only difference between a 3 body character with 10 armor and a 6 body character with 10 armor is 3 damage resistance dice. I mean seriously... woohoo? Given that, who would ever invest into a high body, it's just not worth the returns.

So what if you got rid of encumbrance based on body, and made body a bit more valuable? Say you automatically resist half your body in damage (round down), while still getting to use your full body in a damage resistance test. So the guy with 6 body is taking an automatic 2 less damage than your guy with 3 body. Of course, that gets kind of awkward with vehicles (Hi, I'm just going to ignore the first 8 damage you deal to me, then still roll 36 dice in resistance.), so may not be the best solution. Maybe just do away with body as a separate stat and roll it in with strength? Both stats are on the weak end of things, and even combining them together doesn't make them too strong, and it's not too unreasonable to think that you're no longer going to have wimpy 1 str characters with 6+ body.

[Draco18s]

It seems like the problem here is everyone agrees that having more than 10-12 armor is pretty over the top, but not having more armor than that makes having a high body pretty useless

Yeah, looks like a gentleman's agreement to me.

[suoq]

Personally, when I have more body, on a run, I'm using it for armor. For my 5 body orc, it's YNT Softweave Armor jacket, FFBA half, leg and arm casings, shin casings, and vitals protector, plus a dermal sheath. Comes out to 16/12, which in the end does a nice job of keeping damage in the stun category.

(Going to dinner, or a meet, or some other social occasion, he wears Berwick. That's just me.)

---

For Missions characters, I tend to go with 4 body, 6/4 armor (pick one), half FFBA, and forearm and shin PPP.

----

For 3 body, see above.

I've never done more than 5 body. Not my style. But if I wanted a body that high, I'd be adding the Carbon Boron and forearm protectors probably.

[Draco18s]

And I knew a character who survived a suicide bomber (mook ran up, popped the pin on a 'nade, and hugged him). Took 0 boxes of damage (no Edge).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

*Shakes Head*

[Elfenlied]

Get a quickened armor spell.