[X] My Assistant

[Seerow]

One of SR4's core rules problems, IMO. Can be fixed by making encumbrance dependent on, say, Strength and Agility, for instance. And no, Body does nto need to be upped in value in compensation; it's valuable enough as is, especially for orks and trolls. And no, armor should be a way to somewhat even the odds for characters, enabling the body 2 hacker to survive any damage dealt, not to turn trolls into walking MBTs.

What? How do you figure Body is valuable enough? Its ONLY value is in damage resistance and encumbrance. You're taking away half of its point of existence. Body is far and away the least valuable attribute if you take away encumberence, you may as well just remove body and make damage boxes/damage resistance based on strength.

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(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

I just want to point out that the advanced cargo module got erratad to have only a grapple arm. If you want full mechanical arms you need to spend the two slots on them, which means more overmodding.

[Doc Byte]

I just want to point out that the advanced cargo module got erratad to have only a grapple arm. If you want full mechanical arms you need to spend the two slots on them, which means more overmodding.

I created this mech 2 years ago. There might be a better chassis in War! or Runner's Black Book.

[hermit]

What? How do you figure Body is valuable enough? Its ONLY value is in damage resistance and encumbrance. You're taking away half of its point of existence. Body is far and away the least valuable attribute if you take away encumberence, you may as well just remove body and make damage boxes/damage resistance based on strength.

It gives you damage boxes and is your soak attribute. I don't quite see how that isn't enough (Willpower is even less useful).

And basing Encumbrance on Body devalues armour for anyone not wanting to be a walking tank. This pretty much forces every character who has an interest in survival to max out body (and even then, it heavily biases the game towards orks and trolls). Bad design choice if ever one was made.

[Seerow]

It gives you damage boxes and is your soak attribute. I don't quite see how that isn't enough (Willpower is even less useful).

So now the difference between the 'tank' and your regular guy is 2 boxes of health and 3 extra dice (1 success) on a soak roll. He might survive one extra hit. That's a really big might given how little that difference actually is.

At least now the difference is effectively 9 dices of soak, and you take stun instead of physical damage more often.

As for willpower being less useful, it may be less useful now, but taking away armor from Body makes Body just as bad off as Will, if not worse.

Body/Will used to have the added value of setting target numbers for a lot of effects, but I think most of us agree we don't like variable target numbers... but either the resistance attributes need something else to make them more valuable, or they need to be eliminated. Body setting your max armor is a nice benefit that makes it worthwhile, but not the end all be all.

And basing Encumbrance on Body devalues armour for anyone not wanting to be a walking tank. This pretty much forces every character who has an interest in survival to max out body (and even then, it heavily biases the game towards orks and trolls). Bad design choice if ever one was made.

It doesn't devalue armor, but yes it does prevent them from wearing a ton of it. Your average guy can get away with 8 armor without trying too hard. If he wants more than that, he can invest in more body, but most people don't need more. If you're that worried about survival, reaction is probably the better stat to boost anyway.

[Adarael]

If it's Quickened, you wear that sign all the time, not only when you need the armor.

I was taking Quickened to mean "also in a Sustaining Focus".

[Draco18s]

So now the difference between the 'tank' and your regular guy is 2 boxes of health and 3 extra dice (1 success) on a soak roll. He might survive one extra hit. That's a really big might given how little that difference actually is.

Tank to regular guy is more like 10 dice.

+4 body (= +2 boxes of health) is +6 armor. 4 + 6 = 10.

And that's before armor cheesing.

[KarmaInferno]

I was taking Quickened to mean "also in a Sustaining Focus".

"Quickened" is a pretty specific thing in SR.





-k

[Seerow]

Tank to regular guy is more like 10 dice.

+4 body (= +2 boxes of health) is +6 armor. 4 + 6 = 10.

And that's before armor cheesing.

I was referring specifically to a scenario where body no longer gives you extra armor, as hermit suggested. And I just remembered that health boxes round up. So a 3 body char vs a 6 body character has +1 health box, and 3 extra damage resistance dice. At the cost of 35 build points, or god forbid, 75 karma, that is in no way worth it.


Yes, by the rules Body lets you get extra armor so that 3 extra body gets you 6 extra armor so you end up with 9 total extra soak dice, plus your increased health track, plus you frequently take stun instead of physical damage. But hermit is talking about removing the majority of that benefit, with no compensation, and saying Body is still a great stat. I say BS.

[Draco18s]

I was referring specifically to a scenario where body no longer gives you extra armor, as hermit suggested.

Ah, it was unclear.

[Adarael]

"Quickened" is a pretty specific thing in SR.

Yes, but it's rare for players to use the term that way.

[KarmaInferno]

I dunno. I've been playing SR since it came out, and across the many, many people I've played Shadowrun with, if someone says "quickened", they have almost always meant the Metamagic.

Pretty much if they meant a Sustaining Focus, they said "Sustaining Focus" or "in a focus", or even "in a spell lock".

I suppose it depends on your area.




-k

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I was referring specifically to a scenario where body no longer gives you extra armor, as hermit suggested. And I just remembered that health boxes round up. So a 3 body char vs a 6 body character has +1 health box, and 3 extra damage resistance dice. At the cost of 35 build points, or god forbid, 75 karma, that is in no way worth it.


Yes, by the rules Body lets you get extra armor so that 3 extra body gets you 6 extra armor so you end up with 9 total extra soak dice, plus your increased health track, plus you frequently take stun instead of physical damage. But TJ is talking about removing the majority of that benefit, with no compensation, and saying Body is still a great stat. I say BS.

I think that you have me confused with Hermit... I know, it happens a lot.

[Elfenlied]

Yes, but it's rare for players to use the term that way.

Not in our group. But I guess as always, YMMV.

[Seerow]

I think that you have me confused with Hermit... I know, it happens a lot.

Yeah, it's the avatar. Sorry TJ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)


I did notice the mistake and edited one post, didnt realize I had done it more than once.

[Marwynn]

I don't think so, since only people with Astral sight will actually see the spell. And those will figure out that you're not the mage (unless of course the character in question actually is.

The Armour spell produces a visible glow when cast. Sustained or Quickened, it's going to make two things obvious:

1) You're Magically active and therefore need to die first.

OR

2) You're worth protecting, therefore you need to die first.

Plus there's the whole background count issue.

[Elfenlied]

The Armour spell produces a visible glow when cast.

Emphasis mine. At the time of casting, it is visible, yes. After it has been cast, there's no way you can tell someone has a quickened armor spell on him, unless you have access to astral sight.

[KarmaInferno]

Emphasis mine. At the time of casting, it is visible, yes. After it has been cast, there's no way you can tell someone has a quickened armor spell on him, unless you have access to astral sight.

Wow, that's some serious cheese there.

"When cast" can mean "when activated" too, y'know. Not just "the act of casting the spell".

The act of casting is instantaneous, anyhow.




-k

[Marwynn]

Emphasis mine. At the time of casting, it is visible, yes. After it has been cast, there's no way you can tell someone has a quickened armor spell on him, unless you have access to astral sight.

Though I'm flattered, my word isn't valuable for RAW judgements. Also, you're reaching quite a fair bit on your interpretation.

In SR4A:

This spell creates a glowing field of magical energy around the subject that
protects against Physical damage. It provides both Ballistic and Impact
armor (cumulative with worn armor) to the subject equal to the hits scored.

You cast it on someone, and they have a glowy field around them as long as the spell's in effect.

[CanRay]

Full Combat Armour. Put it on a troll, keep the troll between you and the bullets.

[Mardrax]

It gives you damage boxes and is your soak attribute. I don't quite see how that isn't enough (Willpower is even less useful).

Don't forget it makes you tougher to knock down.

[Seerow]

Don't forget it makes you tougher to knock down.

People actually use the knock down rules?

[Elfenlied]

You cast it on someone, and they have a glowy field around them as long as the spell's in effect.

Well, if you interpret the "glowing field of magical energy" as something you can see without astral sight, then yes, the spell will invariably be less useful. I could certainly see such interpretation being valid.

People actually use the knock down rules?

I only enforce them when someone uses Gel packs.

[Seerow]

I only enforce them when someone uses Gel packs.

Yeah, that and someone using a water elemental attack are about the only scenarios I've seen it used.

[Kirk]

People actually use the knock down rules?

I do. It's not just that the simple action to stand can make a difference. It's that getting knocked down helps tell the story.

"He hit you for 8"
"The troll hammers you, slamming you to the ground."

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah, it's the avatar. Sorry TJ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)


I did notice the mistake and edited one post, didnt realize I had done it more than once.

Hey, No Worries.