Spirits and edge, When do they spend it and why? Options

[yesferatu]

Can anybody tell me when a spirit would use edge or how to get them to spend it?
It seems like a huge waste to have a force 6 spirit, with 6 edge, just sitting on all those extra dice if they're only going to be around for 1 combat.

There's always the "treat your spirits better" argument, but how exactly do you do that when the only time you see them is when you summon them?

[Loch]

I'm away from my books right now, but I believe a summoner can command a spirit to use edge on tests. The spirit generally doesn't like this, however. It might cost an additional service, or in the case of especially abusive summoners, you might allow a spirit to use edge to resist the summoning roll if the mage has a bad rep on the metaplanes for mistreating his spirit "allies".

[yesferatu]

How do you mistreat them vs. coddle them?
I'm just not sure how "hey, go kill everybody in that car" translates to mistreatment.

[Fatum]

I'd say it largely depends on the magical tradition we're talking about here. Say, if your shaman is summoning what he believes to be the spirits of his ancestors, doing the rites of the ancestor cult may gain him the favor of the spirits and make them take that little extra bit of effort to save his hoop, etc.
As to mistreating, a good example is right in the books - making a spirit sustain a spell for you diminishes and finally kills him. Of course spirits regard that as mistreatment.

[Loch]

Last game I ran, I had spirits be really interested in the material world and all the stuff in it that just isn't there in the metaplanes. Depending on the spirit type, they might want certain things from the caster. Beast spirits might want some JiffyPop or a burrito from Stuffer Shack, spirits of man just want to watch a good trid, that kind of thing. Doesn't work for combat if you summon them in a firefight, sure, but then that's not the most creative use of spirits, now is it?

[yesferatu]

I guess I could just summon spirits for non-combat related activities.
It's kind of like the friend who only calls you when he needs something.

I wonder if a spirit would enjoy being summoned to go to the zoo or something or would they rather just be left alone.

[Summerstorm]

Eh i do it this way: No ONE... No spirit, no mercenary, no streetdoc, NOBODY will EVER use his edge for any goals other than his own.

Only if your goals and those of the NPC coincide, they will use edge. With spirits they might use it to: Battle or interact with another spirit-entity they know, or are opposed to by type. And also to protect themselves or a friend. {note that getting "killed" is GOOD for spirits, because they are done with the shit on earth that way, and return to their home}

[Traul]

How do you mistreat them vs. coddle them?
I'm just not sure how "hey, go kill everybody in that car" translates to mistreatment.

That counts as coddling for Blood Spirits.

[Irion]

They use their edge, if their overflow damage might overflow their willpower, since they dislike to lose a force point.
They use edge if summoned or bound, because a player would also use edge if this would give them more Karma.
In short: Spirits acts like players. As NPCs should act like players.

[ThreeGee]

{note that getting "killed" is GOOD for spirits, because they are done with the shit on earth that way, and return to their home}

Thats a big assumption.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Thats a big assumption.

No it's not... They are disrupted, they go home. They cannot die on our plane of existence, and they know that. That is pretty much canon.

[ThreeGee]

No it's not... They are disrupted, they go home. They cannot die on our plane of existence, and they know that. That is pretty much canon.

I don't quite get what you mean, the asssumption I refer to is that spirits want to go home, that they don't want to be in service to a mage.

That is certainly not supported by canon.

[Critias]

Note that going home might be awesome, but the trip there (IE, being disrupted) could still really suck. They shouldn't be going out of their way to leap into the path of hostile magic or anything, just because you (as GM) think they're in a big hurry to get home.

[ThreeGee]

There seems to be an assumption that the relationship between a mage and a spirit is necessarily one of servitude and control, I don't think that's the case.

[Sephiroth]

Eh i do it this way: No ONE... No spirit, no mercenary, no streetdoc, NOBODY will EVER use his edge for any goals other than his own.

Only if your goals and those of the NPC coincide, they will use edge. With spirits they might use it to: Battle or interact with another spirit-entity they know, or are opposed to by type. And also to protect themselves or a friend. {note that getting "killed" is GOOD for spirits, because they are done with the shit on earth that way, and return to their home}

I don't remember whether this was written in RAW or fluff, but even if it is "good" for them, they really prefer not to be disrupted. I'm AFB so I can't go find it right now, but it's been written (I think in Street Magic) that spirits find disruption to be a very painful experience, despite the lack of nervous systems, and avoid it if they can.

[Yerameyahu]

… You summon the spirits, extract Services (*serve*), and command their actions. It's kind built right in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fatum]

… You summon the spirits, extract Services (*serve*), and command their actions. It's kind built right in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But if you read the fluff, it's not quite that simple.

[HunterHerne]

But if you read the fluff, it's not quite that simple.

Different traditions do it differently. For a Hermedic, it would most likely be servitude. For a Shaman, it would be more of a friend asking for a favour.

[Yerameyahu]

Why would I read the fluff? No rules in there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Hehe. I'm just pointing out that they're called Services, and they do them for *you*. Whatever the fluff, the mechanics are obviously about servitude and control, so I found ThreeGee's point odd.

[ThreeGee]

Different traditions do it differently. For a Hermedic, it would most likely be servitude. For a Shaman, it would be more of a friend asking for a favour.

Kinda my point, whether or not a spirit will use edge, either for or against its summoner, is something that has to be role played.

It entirely depends on the tradition and actions of the mage.

[Fatum]

Why would I read the fluff? No rules in there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Hehe. I'm just pointing out that they're called Services, and they do them for *you*. Whatever the fluff, the mechanics are obviously about servitude and control, so I found ThreeGee's point odd.

When you ask your friend to help you move, is your relationship one of servitude and control?

[HunterHerne]

When you ask your friend to help you move, is your relationship one of servitude and control?

Usually. With me playing the servant.

[Critias]

When you ask your friend to help you move, is your relationship one of servitude and control?

Yes. Which is why so many times, my friends hurriedly throw themselves down the stairs to break their legs, so they can't work for me any more and can hurry home.

[ThreeGee]

Why would I read the fluff? No rules in there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Hehe. I'm just pointing out that they're called Services, and they do them for *you*. Whatever the fluff, the mechanics are obviously about servitude and control, so I found ThreeGee's point odd.

Your confusing game mechanics and terminology for the reality of the world.

As I remember Burning Bright has quite detailed descriptions of the relationships between summoner and spirits. Whats described is very far from servitude and control.

[Yerameyahu]

Uh, yeah Fatum. It is, if I summon him (assuming it's even the same spirit) from another plane of reality, engage in a me-vs-you faceoff, and tell him to go do it.

*shrug* The spirits do not summon the mages to go do things for them. That's all there is to it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If they're just your buddies, you shouldn't have to summon them, you shouldn't need Services, they should spend all their Edge for you, etc.

It's hardly my fault if the mechanics are wrong in their description of the 'setting reality', though.