Spirits and edge, When do they spend it and why? Options

[Yerameyahu]

Ditto. Why give them Edge (except as a negative tool for GMs who hate summoners)? Do dogs have Edge? Do paracritters? (If so, they shouldn't either! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

[pbangarth]

Ditto. Why give them Edge (except as a negative tool for GMs who hate summoners)? Do dogs have Edge? Do paracritters? (If so, they shouldn't either! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

Why not? It's a game mechanic.

[Yerameyahu]

I counter your argument with, why *so*? Grunts don't get it. Spirits are critters, NPCs.

[Zaranthan]

Spirits aren't grunts. They're not just speedbumps you throw in front of the players to make them worry about having enough time to use nonlethal firepower. Spirits are powerful entities that give even Prime Runners pause. That's exactly the kind of significant NPC that deserves Edge.

[Elfenlied]

Besides, many Paracritters do have edge.

[Yerameyahu]

Sprits are critters are NPCs are grunts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) They're equivalent to drones, not 'powerful entities that give Prime Runners pause'. They're *disposable* drones, facrissake.

Do they really, Elfenlied? Crazy. A metahuman person doesn't get individual Edge if they're not a PC/Prime, but each *dog* does.

[Zaranthan]

Sprits are critters are NPCs are grunts.

Yes, yes, and no. You're using "grunt" as the colloquial "unimportant minor opposition to the protagonists." I'm using "Grunt" as defined on SR4A pages 280-284, where they are specifically issued Edge scores according to how well-trained they are. A given group of Grunts has to share a single pool of Edge, but they still get it.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) They're equivalent to drones, not 'powerful entities that give Prime Runners pause'. They're *disposable* drones, facrissake.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) yourself. Spirits aren't drones, they're intelligent beings with hopes and dreams like any other sapient being.

As for pause, build me a character that doesn't blink at a F12 Spirit of Man pelting him with stunbolts, using the astral plane to zip around and remain unseen.

Do they really, Elfenlied? Crazy. A metahuman person doesn't get individual Edge if they're not a PC/Prime, but each *dog* does.

Actually, they do. They might only have a rating of 1 (2 if they have round ears), and it might only refresh once a year or so, but they DO have it. An important thing to remember when the sammy decides to gun down Joe Average, Joe has a chance to turn out to be an adolescent Frank Castle.

[LurkerOutThere]

Spirits aren't grunts. They're not just speedbumps you throw in front of the players to make them worry about having enough time to use nonlethal firepower. Spirits are powerful entities that give even Prime Runners pause. That's exactly the kind of significant NPC that deserves Edge.

Actually spirits, most spirits are the very definition of grunts, nameless faceless boxes of stats that for most intents and purposes didn't exists before the summoner willed them into existance. They have no personal motivations (at least none they can act on in any meaningful way), no desires and basically sit on call to be a combat opposition for the summoners enemies. If that is not a grunt I don't know what is.

While we're on the subject the grunt rules need to go go away int he next editionf or exactly this reason. It's silly to have runners with character backgrounds that htye are former elite corporate military, but similarly equiped corporate military (unless they are a team full of primes) share a group edge pool. It makes sense if the "edge" runners have is literally what separates them from the bulk of humanity, it doesn't make sense if you give that same edge to every spirit, sprite, and dog but not to Joe corporate security opposition.

[LurkerOutThere]

As for pause, build me a character that doesn't blink at a F12 Spirit of Man pelting him with stunbolts, using the astral plane to zip around and remain unseen.

Doesn't blink? Not necessarily, but i'll start with anyone with a pain editor, or alternatively a mage who can also summon force 12 spirits. Spirits in 4th edition are canon fodder, disproportionately powerful canon fodder, in part because of their edge expenditure capabilities of F.

[DMiller]

The reason why grunts have a single edge pool is to keep the GM sane, that's all. If you as a GM want each and every NPC to have its own edge pool you can do that and it's not really against RAI (maybe slightly against RAW). The intent of pooled edge is for simplicity. The same as grunts only having one condition monitor... Sanity of the GM. Each player has to track two condition monitors (unless your a rigger), the GM has to track one per NPC, and usually NPCs out-number the PCs two or three to one. If you have to track edge, and 2 condition monitors per NPC you'd go nuts (without using a computer to assist). Our group has all NPCs with 2 condition monitors as I have built a spreadsheet that tracks NPC damage and initiative and makes the process easy.

As for spirits having their own edge, does it really matter since the player can't choose to spend it? It is completly up to the GM when or IF that edge is ever used.

jusy my 2 ¥
-D

[Yerameyahu]

Psh, Zaranthan. I wasn't saying spirits were literally 'Grunts'; I was stating an equivalence.

Force *12* spirits don't enter into it, unless we're also going to use main battle tank drones or something. The fact is they fill the same role, except spirits are utterly expendable. Whether they have hopes and dreams doesn't matter at all. The Pilots might have dreams.

I understand the reason for Edge pools. I just disagree with it. There's no reason to apply it to a group (which AFAIK means 'any number') of trained metahumans, but *not* to a pack of street dogs (they all get real Edge).

It's not like you can only have one spirit at a time, so GM sanity clearly doesn't matter. It's simpler to level it to 'Edge for PCs/Primes only', but you could solve the issue by giving real Edge to the grunts as well. *shrug* In a thread asking for help with spirits and Edge, I gave the simpler solution.

[Traul]

Why not? It's a game mechanic.

Because the GM does not need a rule to fudge rolls (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Cain]

It's not like you can only have one spirit at a time, so GM sanity clearly doesn't matter. It's simpler to level it to 'Edge for PCs/Primes only', but you could solve the issue by giving real Edge to the grunts as well. *shrug* In a thread asking for help with spirits and Edge, I gave the simpler solution.

There is a defined limit to the number of spirits you can have active at any given time, though. There's no limit to the number of grunts you can throw at someone.

Dealing with individual Edge for 6-8 spirits of varying force is difficult enough, I agree. But managing 20 different Edge pools for each of the grunts, plus the prime runners as well? That's insane.

That said, I don't allow the summoner to command a spirit to use Edge. The spirit will use it to save its own hide, nothing more. I'm considering allowing a house rule where the summoner can order a use of Edge (but not a burn) at the expense of a service. If you're being strict about services, it's pretty easy to burn through them.

[Yerameyahu]

That's kind of my point, Cain. 20 grunts sharing… 3 Edge? Harsh. And I agree: 6-8 spirits (per PC/NPC mage) is indeed hard enough that I see group Edge as a quarter-assed solution. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm more concerned about the revelation (to me) that freaking dogs get more Edge than people (including NPC 'grunt' mages who can summon their own handful of spirits each…). I also agree that it's a non-issue because the player can't use the spirit's Edge. I'm just putting forward my personal view that it'd be cleaner if nobody got Edge (except PCs and Primes, natch, which includes Free Spirits, Dragons).

[Dakka Dakka]

The whole Grunt mechanic ( Edge pool and only one Condition Monitor) is to make non-important encounters quicker and easier. There is no rule against simply statting low level gangers according BP Gen rules or just writing down their Attributes and abilities. So yes, grunts (no capital g here) should also get personal Edge, unless you want to use the simplification.

What if you call him on the cell, lure him into helping you with blatant flattery and then direct him around your house, asking to do this and that until he's tired?

No matter how you sugar coat the command/request, the point is that contrary to friends and acquaintances, the spirit cannot say no, and is forced to do whatever you demand. This is servitude.

[Cain]

There's a reason why I completely despise the NPC rules, and you've hit on some of them.

The problem here is, a prime runner is basically defined as a set number of BP, built on the same rules as the PC's. But that assumes that the GM can get as much or more mileage out of those BP's as the players can. You could end up with a 500 BP Prime who's totally ineffective against the party. What's more, you need to number-crunch those 500 BP, essentially building a PC from scratch, which is a difficult and painful process.

But grunts? Those stats are *assigned*. You just use what's in the books or give them what you think is appropriate. You don't have to build them, they have the stats you want them to have. That means the grunts could easily have better dice pools than the prime runners do, depending on how good you are at building characters.

[DMiller]

There's a reason why I completely despise the NPC rules, and you've hit on some of them.

The problem here is, a prime runner is basically defined as a set number of BP, built on the same rules as the PC's. But that assumes that the GM can get as much or more mileage out of those BP's as the players can. You could end up with a 500 BP Prime who's totally ineffective against the party. What's more, you need to number-crunch those 500 BP, essentially building a PC from scratch, which is a difficult and painful process.

But grunts? Those stats are *assigned*. You just use what's in the books or give them what you think is appropriate. You don't have to build them, they have the stats you want them to have. That means the grunts could easily have better dice pools than the prime runners do, depending on how good you are at building characters.

LOL, guess I've been doing it wrong. I just assign my Prime Runner stats too. I tend to give them actual background skills, contacts and such which I don't do for grunts. But other than fleshing them out more, I create them the same way as grunts. Oops, my bad. Of course this woun't stop me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-D

[Cain]

LOL, guess I've been doing it wrong. I just assign my Prime Runner stats too. I tend to give them actual background skills, contacts and such which I don't do for grunts. But other than fleshing them out more, I create them the same way as grunts. Oops, my bad. Of course this woun't stop me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Me, either. In fact, I seldom assign stats at all: I just look at the dice pools being tossed around the table, and adjust the opposition pools up or down as needed. It's not RAW, but it's a hell of a lot faster and easier to run.

[Wiseman]

Necro! Sorry guys, was browsing magic threads for a new player starting a game this friday and saw this and couldn't resist responding.

While it may not make sense objectively why edge isn't equal across all NPC's, critters, spirits, etc. Having played enough PnP games over the years, I'd venture to guess it is likely a metagame reason (above and beyond just easier for a GM to calculate).

First, it's just a mechanic. You can't really measure how "lucky" someone is or why some are luckier than others in real life, so there isn't anything to base it off of rationally.

But I think it's because the players are the ones expected to survive multiple challenges over the course of a game or campaign. NPC's, spirits, grunts, critters just show up for the scene and are replaced in the next scene with more obstacles to challenge the players.

If the GM always used edge as if every NPC were a PC, statistics say it's only a matter of time before the PC's are out of edge and here come the next round of grunts burning even more edge, which leads to TPK and grossly exaggerates the NPC's strength.

Almost all games i've played that have a "Hero Factor" by way of dice multiplier/exploder/luck mechanic (Force Points in D20 Star Wars, Action Points in Eberron, etc), tend to limit/disallow that mechanic for the NPC's.

As a GM, my NPC only needs to exist in that one combat turn or scene (depending on his plot use). So what if they die? But not so with players. Edge then becomes a skewed advantage for the NPC's when you're on the gm side of the screen, since you just "spawn" more NPC's and carry on.

Same thing happened in D20 Star Wars with their critical hit system (delivering damage to wound points which were based on Constitution and rarely increased even at level 20). Eventually, no matter how a player was built, he would die to even a weak opponent because it was inevitable that in all the battles with all the NPC's, one mook would get lucky.

Edit: And for that same reason, player's summoning spirits would never be allowed to command edge.

[Yerameyahu]

There's nothing wrong with 'hero factor' and game balance; it's just the idea that a dog (a *normal* dog) has vastly more hero factor than a non-player human (/ork/etc.). Bah.

[Zaranthan]

That just gives the DM an excuse to stymie the unnecessary roughness. "Sure, you can empty your magazines at the pet store. The various dogs, cats, rodents, and small birds manage to avoid every single bullet and come charging out at you with vengeance in their eyes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) "

[Critias]

There's nothing wrong with 'hero factor' and game balance; it's just the idea that a dog (a *normal* dog) has vastly more hero factor than a non-player human (/ork/etc.). Bah.

Aww, c'mon. Who's more heroic, Lassie or some nasty tusker? It makes perfect sense to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Wiseman]

I get your point. The non-player humans do have "hero factor", it's just "shared" as part of the encounter.

And what is a dog going to do with that edge anyway, lick himself better (because he can), cross a busy intersection? The power of edge is what and when you use it. But yea, does seem a little silly.

Though, it does explain why people name their dogs "Lucky"