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> Mundane Stealth versus Magic Security, How do you pull it off?
AppliedCheese
post Aug 25 2011, 06:11 PM
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Its all in the header.

An infiltrator type character can max out his infiltration, cover up in ruthenium, throw on a chameleon suit with full thermal dampening, and a variety of other options to avoid meatside detection. He sacrifices some armor and BPs/Karma, but he can make finding himself damn hard.

He can get aerosols, nanites, jammers, low power lasers, and MAD proof bullets and MAD proof guns, choose to run bioware only, and other options to avoid various sensors.

Erase tags, turn off commlinks, etc. to fall off the matrix. It may cost a lot of that cool functionality, but it can be done.

But for the love of me, how does the infiltrator get past an F1 watcher who perceives him astrally no matter how awesome his skills and kit are?

Mundane only. Magic fighting magic is right out, as is any adeptry.
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HunterHerne
post Aug 25 2011, 06:17 PM
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Personally, I allow mundane characters to use infiltration against astral perception, albeit at -6 penalty to reflect not knowing exactly what you are hiding from. I would also allow a specialization to hide from astral observers, but it would merely bring the penalties to -4.

For astrally percieving characters, this is still possible, but the penalties are not included.
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Yerameyahu
post Aug 25 2011, 06:18 PM
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Lots of previous threads on this. The short answer is 'it's hard', and it should be. Magic is magic.
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Fatum
post Aug 25 2011, 06:19 PM
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Been recently discussed at least two times. Basically, some people think you can still use infiltration, some don't, and both have arguments to back their point up.
That said, you could try using FAB or Mage Sight Drops from Spy Games...
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Draco18s
post Aug 25 2011, 06:19 PM
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By RAW, Infiltration works against the astral just as well as it does against the physical. Which it does, solid objects are still opaque on the astral. They're just insubstantial.
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MJBurrage
post Aug 25 2011, 06:20 PM
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All the toys add nothing, but the Infiltration skill itself should still work. The infiltrator knows to use objects that block auras just like using shadows to block vision.

If the GM says no because the character does not have astral perception, than suggest that a magic knowledge skill would give the character the required background to use their infiltration skill this way.

EDIT: need to learn to type faster (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post Aug 25 2011, 06:25 PM
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I've said before and I'll say it again. get a cardboard box, make a small hole in it and cover with a transparent plastic so it blocks the light of your aura, but you can still see through the box. TA DA, no astral perceiver will be able to see you.
Solid Snake WAS RIGHT.
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Draco18s
post Aug 25 2011, 06:29 PM
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QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Aug 25 2011, 02:25 PM) *
I've said before and I'll say it again. get a cardboard box, make a small hole in it and cover with a transparent plastic so it blocks the light of your aura, but you can still see through the box. TA DA, no astral perceiver will be able to see you.
Solid Snake WAS RIGHT.


They'll just see a box. Coat the inside with FAB and they can't even stick their head in to check it out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
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Fatum
post Aug 25 2011, 06:30 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 25 2011, 10:19 PM) *
By RAW, Infiltration works against the astral just as well as it does against the physical. Which it does, solid objects are still opaque on the astral. They're just insubstantial.
Look, we've been over it already, let's not start it again. I still think that you can't hide from something you can't see, and thus Infiltration is useless, you still think otherwise. In the end it's still up to the particular GM to decide.
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Traul
post Aug 25 2011, 06:36 PM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Aug 25 2011, 07:19 PM) *
That said, you could try using FAB

You mean that when you want to stay unnoticed, you start tossing smoke grenades around? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
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Yerameyahu
post Aug 25 2011, 06:40 PM
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It's not about being able to see. Everyone hides from things they can't see, mundane or not. It's about how easy it is for them to see you (in most cases, very).
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Makki
post Aug 25 2011, 06:57 PM
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a F1 watcher with its 2 dice for assenssing might get +3 if the order was "look out!"
5 dice is still not much to notice anything significant...
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Yerameyahu
post Aug 25 2011, 06:59 PM
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Most people are Obvious on the astral, though. It all depends. As it stands, the rules don't cover this interaction terribly well, either being too harsh or too easy (depending on your view).
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Draco18s
post Aug 25 2011, 07:02 PM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Aug 25 2011, 02:30 PM) *
Look, we've been over it already, let's not start it again. I still think that you can't hide from something you can't see


Sure you can. In fact, most people hide from things they can't see.
It's like saying that just because you've never seen a million dollars, that it doesn't exist.
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Fatum
post Aug 25 2011, 07:05 PM
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QUOTE (Traul @ Aug 25 2011, 10:36 PM) *
You mean that when you want to stay unnoticed, you start tossing smoke grenades around? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
I mean when you try to sneak past someone pretty stupid, but invisible for you, you might as well try to outline him, at least, and hope that said outlining won't cause him to raise alarm.

QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 25 2011, 11:02 PM) *
Sure you can. In fact, most people hide from things they can't see.
It's like saying that just because you've never seen a million dollars, that it doesn't exist.
On the contrary. To sneak past a cam or hide from a patrol, you should be aware about them. Passively hiding from things you can't see is handled with Disguise.
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AppliedCheese
post Aug 25 2011, 07:17 PM
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While I concur magic is, in fact, magic, 100 years ago the idea that something could sit at 30,000 feet and pick up your heat signature in enough definition to determine what your wearing and record it all would have seemed like magic.

But now that its here, those in the business of not being found by that sort of thing find ways...I can't imagine that for 50-60 years every organization that has a vested interest in being sneaky (especially since some of those tend to have lots of resources) has just said, well screw it, if they put up magic, sneaking is game over.

So, what is this with mage spy drops and FAB?

Is there anything that lets you conceivably move around, being all infiltrator like, and still try to hide from the astral?

And not to stoke the fire, but you can't see a drone at 30,000 feet either, but if you know its likely, you can take steps to hide from it...
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Draco18s
post Aug 25 2011, 07:19 PM
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QUOTE (AppliedCheese @ Aug 25 2011, 03:17 PM) *
And not to stoke the fire, but you can't see a drone at 30,000 feet either, but if you know its likely, you can take steps to hide from it...


Yep, I hide from satellites all day long. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
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Fatum
post Aug 25 2011, 07:37 PM
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And here we go all over again. I thought we could at least agree to disagree.
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AppliedCheese
post Aug 25 2011, 08:01 PM
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I'll agree to disagree...just want to know what options you have to break the magicrun win button.
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Aerospider
post Aug 25 2011, 08:25 PM
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Something I never see mentioned in these threads is the most common means of subterfuge. Every magician in the world will extol on you the importance of misdirection. It's a LOT easier to be invisible when no one's looking at you. Have a team mate release a bunch of ferrets on the other side of the compound and the spirits (watchers in particular) will certainly want to check it out.
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Fatum
post Aug 25 2011, 08:35 PM
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They'll also raise alarm, and the whole secure facility will be prepared for your arrival.
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Aerospider
post Aug 25 2011, 08:37 PM
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Another thing is that most people seem to treat spirits like automatic gun turrets. I.e. If it's alive, kill it. I'm not sure how reasonable it is for any kind of spirit to know all the astral forms of legitimate personnel by heart, but remember that although their 'vision' is superior you're still dealing with a security guard. Con is still an option, as are various distractions. The spirit could easily be tricked into confronting the Face whilst the rest of the team sneak up to the front door.

But what gets me most is the extent to which people will trick cameras and then whine about how 'omniscient' spirits are. You'll shell out for rhuthenium but magic vs magic is too much to ask? This is a different game, hombre, but the rules are the same - keep up or don't try.
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Draco18s
post Aug 25 2011, 08:41 PM
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QUOTE (Aerospider @ Aug 25 2011, 04:37 PM) *
Con is still an option, as are various distractions.


My current character con'd a spirit. I manifested to ask why my sin didn't say I was a registered mage.
"I'm a mage?" *roll con, several net hits*

QUOTE
I'm not sure how reasonable it is for any kind of spirit to know all the astral forms of legitimate personnel by heart


SR3 had rules for that, to some degree. It was either spirits, or wards. There were only so many people the spirit/ward could identify as being OK.
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Aerospider
post Aug 25 2011, 08:48 PM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Aug 25 2011, 09:35 PM) *
They'll also raise alarm, and the whole secure facility will be prepared for your arrival.

With me as GM the on-call security mage wouldn't get out of bed/body at the mental image of a bunch of rodents.

My point was rooted in the notion that a spirit cannot feasibly be advised on how to react to every possible occurence. You might say they've been told not to worry about anything smaller than a dwarf, fair enough, but if a human can be tricked or distracted then so can a spirit and the spirit should be easier since they've probably had a lot less security training.
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Traul
post Aug 25 2011, 08:53 PM
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QUOTE (Aerospider @ Aug 25 2011, 09:48 PM) *
You might say they've been told not to worry about anything smaller than a dwarf

The ultimate infiltration team: gnomes & pixies (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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