Mundane Stealth versus Magic Security, How do you pull it off? Options

[Draco18s]

The ultimate infiltration team: gnomes & pixies (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Pixies are already immune to perception of all forms at will. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[CanRay]

Until they call out, "Hey, listen!"

[AppliedCheese]

@ Aero:

The difference is thusly: Anyone can shell out for ruthenium. Granted, the street sam with ten tons of steel in his troll body and the minigun probably won't, but any single character can attempt to defeat sensors.

Anyone can cut their commlink to hidden or even OFF and erase their tags.

Anyone can pay up for a chameleon suit if they don't mind a 6/4 base.

So, meatside, matrix side, and techhead side, anyone can disappear if they really want to, with the right stuff.

We're looking for a way for a non-mage to be able to get past a spirit. With technical or skill advantages mechanically, not just through clever play.

[Yerameyahu]

Magic is supposed to be not just anyone. If you're removing 'be smart' from the equation, what's left? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Erik Baird]

A non-mage gets past a spirit the same way a non-mage gets past anything else: intelligent use of cover and concealment. A soldier maneuvering through a battlefield doesn't know where the enemy's observation posts are, but he uses terrain and obstacles to obscure his movement. He doesn't wander out into the middle of a clearing and wonder why he's getting hit with indirect fire.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

They'll also raise alarm, and the whole secure facility will be prepared for your arrival.

The would raise the alarm for a bunch of Ferrets or Rats? Not Likely...

[KeyMasterOfGozer]

Fatum, I understand what you are saying, but I don't think it's the fact that the watcher can't be seen by the infiltrator that makes it difficult, it would only be that infiltrator doesn't KNOW where the watcher is. An infiltrator would routinely infiltrate past cameras that he can't see (since if he can see the camera, it can see him) as long as he is aware of where the camera is located.

The same thing applies to Infiltrating against a watcher that the infiltrator doesn't see. He can make a reasonable guess at where a watcher would be, and then infiltrate passed with those assumptions. Since he can't be exactly sure where the watcher is, I think it would be reasonable to apply a penalty similar to shooting at an invisible target.

I think the satellite analogy that Draco18 said is very key. I you are aware that a satellite is somewhere above, you can certainly hide from it as you move, even if you have never actually seen the satellite, with the appropriate penalty for not knowing exactly where it is. The GM can decide, "Well, the infiltrator was wrong, there was no satellite, there was a camera over there." SO if the infiltrator was totally wrong about where he thinks a watcher might be, then the GM should let the roll happen as if the user is normally infiltrating, but ignore the results and the infiltrator is "seen". THe same should happen with a watcher. The player should declare where he thinks observation may be coming from, and make his Infiltration roll with the invisible penalty. If the watcher was somewhere totally different, the GM makes teh call and may get him spotted, just as if he fails the roll.

[HunterHerne]

With me as GM the on-call security mage wouldn't get out of bed/body at the mental image of a bunch of rodents.

My point was rooted in the notion that a spirit cannot feasibly be advised on how to react to every possible occurence. You might say they've been told not to worry about anything smaller than a dwarf, fair enough, but if a human can be tricked or distracted then so can a spirit and the spirit should be easier since they've probably had a lot less security training.

Not to mention the general infamiliarity with Earth in general, as well as having a total of 2 dice for most tests they will try, before modifiers.

[Traul]

Not to mention the general infamiliarity with Earth in general, as well as having a total of 2 dice for most tests they will try, before modifiers.

That's not a problem for Assensing, though, thanks to the retarded astral perception modifiers in Street Magic.

[Yerameyahu]

It depends. Some of the modifiers are big penalties, some are big bonuses. They make sense: in a crowd, you're hard to spot; in the open, you can't hide at all.

[Traul]

Where are the big bonuses for physcial perception then? This table is off by some 4 dice because the author took average conditions as the baseline whereas the core rules for physical sight take perfect conditions as the baseline: any less light and you get a darkness penalty, any more and you get a glare penalty. A cluttered astral background is -2 dice when total darkness is -6, FAB cloud is -2 when thermal smoke is -6 to thermographic vision,...

[Fatum]

Nice, and how exactly do you know where a spirit might be, KeyMasterOfGozer? It's not like anything's limiting it in its movements...

[Yerameyahu]

There are tons of bonuses for physical perception. It's the easiest pool to raise.

Astral space is different, it has super-light (not glare) as well as darkness. They're just different, how is that a problem?

[Aerospider]

Magic is supposed to be not just anyone. If you're removing 'be smart' from the equation, what's left? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Amen

[Fyndhal]

A trick I've never actually pulled in a game, but have wanted to for a long time is to pull a page from Khadaji's handbook.

Step 1: Find secure facility that has something you want.
Step 2: Purposefully set off alarm, retreat.
Step 3: Wait for guards to investigate and find nothing.
Step 4: Let time pass, say 2-3 hours.
Step 5: Repeat steps 2-4. For several days.
Step 6: Walk in, ignore alarms, pick up whatever you are looking for and walk out before the guards, who are SICK OF THIS SHIT even bother to show up.

Granted, it wouldn't work for every type of run or against every kind of facility, but it can be damned effective!

[suoq]

Release a box full of Nimue's Salamenders.

Personally, I prefer going in detected and expected over going in undetected. But that's just me.

[Ascalaphus]

I do think part of Infiltration is thinking "If I was director of security, where would I put the watcher spirits?" - and that's why you might have a clue which spots to avoid. Obviously, your dice roll result says something about how well you guessed.

And if not Infiltratrion, then Knowledge: Magical Security Tactics.

[Kirk]

OK, since I wasn't part of the discussion, can someone enlighten me. Because Street Magic says that meatspace objects are insubstantial but opaque on the astral plane.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

OK, since I wasn't part of the discussion, can someone enlighten me. Because Street Magic says that meatspace objects are insubstantial but opaque on the astral plane.

This is True... What is the actual issue you need enlightenment with? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Kirk]

This is True... What is the actual issue you need enlightenment with? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The impression I received was that some think it's impossible to hide from astrals. I wanted to make sure that was false.

I'm not arguing yet that it's possible to stealth past magic security, but I wanted to make sure the baseline limit does exist.

[AppliedCheese]

Here's another one...physical, non-organic objects block/opaque out auras by fluff. Clothes are, by definition, non-organic unless your perhaps wearing a recent bearskin. So, assuming your not running around naked, shouldn't spirits just see a pile of opaque stuff when you go to ground? And when you move, just a moving opaque object, meta shaped - especially if your latexed/nano'd over mask wise and wearing gloves? At what point does an aura break through? Someone earlier said a cardboard box would do it...if thats true, wouldn't a quarter inch of kevlar do the same? A

And if you go to ground in tall grass, does the aura from the grass cover your aura, and your opaqued out body form?

And not possessing spy games, what is a mage sight drop?

Oh, and if your essence gets lower, wouldn't that theoretically decrease your aura? We know it inherently decreases your interaction with the Astral (mages losing their magic etc.)

Do cyberzombies even show up on Astral as an aura?

Questions, questions for having the low tech beat the "high tech" of shadowrun. Because if you aren't looking to strip the advantages away from the haves and render them pointless, you aren't being a good terrorist/shadowrunner.

[Fyndhal]

The impression I received was that some think it's impossible to hide from astrals. I wanted to make sure that was false.

I'm not arguing yet that it's possible to stealth past magic security, but I wanted to make sure the baseline limit does exist.

It's unclear. The wording on the FAQ can be interpreted to say "You cannot use Infiltration against astral observers unless you, yourself, are perceiving astrally." However, it also stats that it can be done, but is difficult. Each side of the argument clings to the interpretation they prefer.

My interpretation is that Infiltration vs Astral Observers can work, but the observer gets substantial bonuses to his assensing test, while the Infiltrator loses benefit of his toys.

[Fatum]

I do think part of Infiltration is thinking "If I was director of security, where would I put the watcher spirits?" - and that's why you might have a clue which spots to avoid. Obviously, your dice roll result says something about how well you guessed.
And if not Infiltratrion, then Knowledge: Magical Security Tactics.

Aha, and then you notice that the best option is having them patrol an area, and with how little the limitations of the physical word apply to the astral, you have absolutely no idea where in the area the spirit might be at any given moment, mph?

Here's another one...physical, non-organic objects block/opaque out auras by fluff. Clothes are, by definition, non-organic unless your perhaps wearing a recent bearskin. So, assuming your not running around naked, shouldn't spirits just see a pile of opaque stuff when you go to ground? And when you move, just a moving opaque object, meta shaped - especially if your latexed/nano'd over mask wise and wearing gloves? At what point does an aura break through? Someone earlier said a cardboard box would do it...if thats true, wouldn't a quarter inch of kevlar do the same? A

Far as I understand, your aura extends past your clothes. Like, a couple of inches from your body.

And if you go to ground in tall grass, does the aura from the grass cover your aura, and your opaqued out body form?

Yes. Basically, that's the most obvious method of actually hiding from an astral observer.

And not possessing spy games, what is a mage sight drop?

Eye drops that let mundanes see astral bodies.

Oh, and if your essence gets lower, wouldn't that theoretically decrease your aura? We know it inherently decreases your interaction with the Astral (mages losing their magic etc.)

Nothing I remember on that affecting the assensing tests against you...

Do cyberzombies even show up on Astral as an aura?

Yes, but it's twisted, unnatural and painful to look at.

[whatevs]

Misdirection has to be the answer to the op's question. Spirits, especially watchers, could be manipulated fairly easily. But what about paying a mage to have a (possibly bound) spirit use the concealment critter power to conceal on the astral?

That's right. I went there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Zarek]

What about Tempo?