Mundane Stealth versus Magic Security, How do you pull it off? Options

[Fatum]

Tempo's bad for your health, omae.

[Ascalaphus]

Well, it makes sense that it's harder to Infiltrate if you can't see the people you're trying to sneak past. That would be spirits, for one. But it would also apply to mundane guards with so much Ruthenium that you fail to notice, an infrared laser tripwire, or a camera hidden so well that you don't spot it. These are all the same problem for the Infiltrator.

AFAIK, the rules don't say anything about it. A good ruling would of course apply to all those cases - a basic ruling on how to Infiltrate past spotters you can and spotters you can't see.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Here's another one...physical, non-organic objects block/opaque out auras by fluff. Clothes are, by definition, non-organic unless your perhaps wearing a recent bearskin. So, assuming your not running around naked, shouldn't spirits just see a pile of opaque stuff when you go to ground? And when you move, just a moving opaque object, meta shaped - especially if your latexed/nano'd over mask wise and wearing gloves? At what point does an aura break through? Someone earlier said a cardboard box would do it...if thats true, wouldn't a quarter inch of kevlar do the same? A

As Fatum said, aura surpasses your clothes, it is known.

And if you go to ground in tall grass, does the aura from the grass cover your aura, and your opaqued out body form?

Yes, that's a good way to do it.

Now, I think the biggest problem with being a mundane infiltrator trying to pass through astral observers is not so much the fact that they can be travelling extremely fast and pretty much from any angle, because, honestly, cover and concealment still help on the astral plane. No, the biggest problem is because you are trying to be as stealthy as if you were trying to pass mundane observers while carrying an omni-directional 750 watts spotlight. So, you either carry something with you to block this "light" or walk near other 750 watts spotlights.

[AppliedCheese]

Which leads to the question: how do you reasonably block the giant spot light while still remaining functional matrix and meat-side?

[Yerameyahu]

You can't, if you've stipulated 'no magic'. Concealment was mentioned (the ultimate, unexplained stealth power), and various applications of Masking might help (more for disguising than blocking). The cardboard box works, but I wouldn't call it 'functional'.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

You can't, if you've stipulated 'no magic'. Concealment was mentioned (the ultimate, unexplained stealth power), and various applications of Masking might help (more for disguising than blocking). The cardboard box works, but I wouldn't call it 'functional'.

OOOOOHHHH, COME ON! If Solid Snake can do it, why can't I? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

But yeah, basically, your best option is carpet-bomb the place you are invading with FAB so it can conceal where you are, but won't conceal the fact that the facility has been breached.

[CanRay]

OOOOOHHHH, COME ON! If Solid Snake can do it, why can't I? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

"I upgraded from a cardboard box to a oil drum!"

[HunterHerne]

"I upgraded from a cardboard box to a oil drum!"

Oooooh. Additional "armour".

[Bigity]

More difficult to affect with spells too.

[HunterHerne]

More difficult to affect with spells too.

Well, most spells. Indirect Combat spells will still treat the barrel like swiss cheese, but who takes indirect combat spells?

[suoq]

I'm still slightly confused with the infiltration against groups you can't see comments. If two groups are hunting each other and trying to stay hidden, what skill(s) do they use?

[suoq]

d.p.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm still slightly confused with the infiltration against groups you can't see comments. If two groups are hunting each other and trying to stay hidden, what skill(s) do they use?

Infiltration (to stay hidden) and possibly Tracking (To actually find them, assuming you have evidence that you can use to track) or Shadowing (to keep them in sight, once you have found them). Could also use a Hacker to tell you where they are, assuming that he has them on the security systems (should not be all that hard, actually).

EDIT: And of Course, Perception... Duh!

[Aerospider]

I'm still slightly confused with the infiltration against groups you can't see comments. If two groups are hunting each other and trying to stay hidden, what skill(s) do they use?

By RAW, for individuals it would be Infiltration vs Perception each way. I.e. if Perception wins twice they spot each other, if it wins once then one spots the other and if it doesn't win either then both stay hidden.

Now with groups, technically the Infiltration rolls should be done individually whilst the Perception rolls should be done once per Infiltration roll. This means one opposed test per person, which could get pretty tedious pretty quickly so you might want to make just one Perception roll per side and use the hits as a common threshold for the respective Infiltrators (kinda like an area effect spell). I would suggest simplifying it further by making only one Infiltration test per side as well (so you're back at just two opposed tests) but turn the group bonus into a penalty to reflect it being harder to keep 6 guys hidden than it is to keep 2 guys hidden. Alternatively you could use the weakest dice pool (the guy in the group most likely to blow it) and think of the group bonus as team mates helping him stay hidden - 'Psst, dude, get away from the window!'

Of course the problem with simplifying it to two opposed tests is that the result doesn't indicate exactly who spotted who, but if it's an uncomplicated set-up or you're employing a reasonably abstract approach this shouldn't matter.

There's more you can play around with if you want. For one thing you can allow Infiltration to replace Perception, as people who know how to hide will know where to seek (this is optional RAW).

You might consider successful hiding to impact on the ability to spot the other side. For example, have both sides roll their Infiltration first and then choose how many hits to keep. That number of hits is then a negative penalty to their Perception roll. I.e. a team focussed on spotting the other side is more likely to get spotted themselves than a team focussed on staying hidden.

Another option that comes to mind is Leadership. If one side has time to draw up a game plan I'd allow one of them a Leadership roll for bonus dice in the Perception or Infiltration test (but probably not both).

[HunterHerne]

By RAW, for individuals it would be Infiltration vs Perception each way. I.e. if Perception wins twice they spot each other, if it wins once then one spots the other and if it doesn't win either then both stay hidden.

Now with groups, technically the Infiltration rolls should be done individually whilst the Perception rolls should be done once per Infiltration roll. This means one opposed test per person, which could get pretty tedious pretty quickly so you might want to make just one Perception roll per side and use the hits as a common threshold for the respective Infiltrators (kinda like an area effect spell). I would suggest simplifying it further by making only one Infiltration test per side as well (so you're back at just two opposed tests) but turn the group bonus into a penalty to reflect it being harder to keep 6 guys hidden than it is to keep 2 guys hidden. Alternatively you could use the weakest dice pool (the guy in the group most likely to blow it) and think of the group bonus as team mates helping him stay hidden - 'Psst, dude, get away from the window!'

Of course the problem with simplifying it to two opposed tests is that the result doesn't indicate exactly who spotted who, but if it's an uncomplicated set-up or you're employing a reasonably abstract approach this shouldn't matter.

There's more you can play around with if you want. For one thing you can allow Infiltration to replace Perception, as people who know how to hide will know where to seek (this is optional RAW).

You might consider successful hiding to impact on the ability to spot the other side. For example, have both sides roll their Infiltration first and then choose how many hits to keep. That number of hits is then a negative penalty to their Perception roll. I.e. a team focussed on spotting the other side is more likely to get spotted themselves than a team focussed on staying hidden.

Another option that comes to mind is Leadership. If one side has time to draw up a game plan I'd allow one of them a Leadership roll for bonus dice in the Perception or Infiltration test (but probably not both).

Ah, the difficult task of making Leadership useful. I agree with it, but in the end it's just a tacked on skill no one actually seems to use.

[Aerospider]

Ah, the difficult task of making Leadership useful. I agree with it, but in the end it's just a tacked on skill no one actually seems to use.

I find it works well to think of it as Persuasion.

[whatevs]

Ah, the difficult task of making Leadership useful. I agree with it, but in the end it's just a tacked on skill no one actually seems to use.

I find it works well to think of it as Persuasion.

Or if yer commanding a group of npc's. I'd give bonuses to keep them under control by using leadership.

Also, if your gm likes the commanding voice adept power. Leadership is used to attack with it and defend against it. It sucks when an adept with 13 dice in leadership tells you to drop your gun, and you're defending with 5 willpower dice.

[Bodak]

Have a team mate release a bunch of ferrets on the other side of the compound

With me as GM the on-call security mage wouldn't get out of bed/body at the mental image of a bunch of rodents.

I hope nobody gets the impression from this that ferrets are rodents. They're mustelidae, exclusively carnivorous, with very different teeth to rodents...

[Aerospider]

I hope nobody gets the impression from this that ferrets are rodents. They're mustelidae, exclusively carnivorous, with very different teeth to rodents...

Nice pedantry. +1 Karma.

[Bodak]

Nice pedantry. +1 Karma.

I wouldn't really call it pedantry unless you'd also call objections to "Just release a sack full of stray cats near the guard outpost. When the guard sees the canines..." pedantic.

Cats and dogs are roughly the same size and have up to four legs and one tail but anyone who owns a cat or a dog will assure you in no uncertain terms they are very different indeed. The same is true for ferrets and rodents. I happen to have 2 ferrets and when they catch sight of a rat it's like dogs catching sight of a cat (but generally more terminal). They're really totally different.

[LurkerOutThere]

Ah, the difficult task of making Leadership useful. I agree with it, but in the end it's just a tacked on skill no one actually seems to use.

Well say what you will but war finally fixed that, and in a pretty reasonable manner.

[Psikerlord]

Way I read the astral perception modifiers in street magic, seems to me you could try and use mundane stealth against a spirit or mage. Not a great chance I guess in most cases, but maybe if you mix yourself in with a group of workers, you could apply -2 to the watcher. That plus a distraction might be enough to get you by if your hiding stats are good enough (esp with Edge?). Certainly not impossible. In any case seems to me it should be hard to beat magic without magic.

[LurkerOutThere]

Actually i don't know what about a watcher would even make it able to distinguish a non worker from a worker. Where magical watchers are theoreticly a problem is in places where no one should be.

[AppliedCheese]

You see, thats where I have the theoretical disconnect. that it should be hard to beat magic without magic. per fluff, people fear magic. They are afraid of magic. They don't understand it. Several major, highly militant, organizations don't have much in the way of magic. And there's a substantial sample size to test against.

This has been the case for over half a decade. Traditionally, humanity has done some things very well: one of them is find a way to utterly thrash, kill, or supplant the power of things that scare them and they consider different, whether they deserve it or not. It seems that by now, there should be a wide variety of ways to not only beat magic, but be better than magic.

You know the moment the great ghost dance happened, someone in the halls of government said two things. 1) Lets get us some of that, and 2) how do we make sure that we can kill the living shit out of anybody who can do that.

[suoq]

per fluff, people fear magic. They are afraid of magic. They don't understand it.

That's so 2050.

We've had dual natured light for years now. (just run a modified current through orichalcum-laced filament). People get convicted though forensic thaumaturgy. For 1000Y you can get some Shade and visit the other side. Heck, you can even get a license for that stuff.

Magic is normal. That's why we have watchers all over the place. Sure, they were scary back before we even knew what a technomancer was, but nowadays even an AI can get a SIN. Hiring a mage is just something corps, governments, and, if you have the cash, people do.