Sustaining, Quickening, and using each on both., Questions about limits for each of these Options

[Cloud]

Is there a limit to how many spells you can sustain at one time? I know eventually the penalty gets ridiculous but I is there a hard stop like 'you can sustain a number of spells equal to your magic rating' or something like that?

Is there a limit to how many you can quicken? I thought I found this at one time but now I go back through my books and I've found no such limit. It is possible that our group made a house rule but I want to know if that is what happened or it there is a hard rule on it. I thought the total power for all quickened spells could not exceed twice (or maybe it was thrice but I don't think so) your magic rating but I'm having trouble finding that anywhere. help?

When you cast a spell, the limit for the number of successes is the force of the spell but this can be bypassed when you use edge for a spell. Is there a limit on how far past it edge allows? If I want to use edge to cast a force 5 combat sense spell and get 11 successes, can I then quicken this for 5 karma and sit on the extra successes? Since increased reflexes is threshold bases, can I cast it at force 1 with edge and get 6 successes then pay 1 karma to quicken it? I know a since level of BC will instantly drop it but can it be done?

[Yerameyahu]

It's something like 2*Magic, or total Force = 2*Magic? There's a rule about having active foci max out at Force = 2*Magic as well, I believe? (Sorry these are vague, heh.)

You can probably quicken as much as you want. They'll just get dispelled by a ward or something and waste your karma, so go nuts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

No, Edge simply breaks the limit. No new limit. So cheesy.

[Sephiroth]

For sustaining, you reach the hard cap when you no longer have enough spellcasting dice to get a hit. There is no cap other than that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif) For quickening, the only cap that exists is the one regarding the interaction of sustained/quickened spells with extended masking.

Contrary to what you might think from Yerameyahu's comment, quickening can be quite useful even when taking wards into consideration. But to make that happen, quickening is really something you need to save for your third initiation or higher, and get masking and extended masking first. Then the absolute FIRST spell that you quicken has to be Increase Intuition, which hopefully pushes your Intuition to its augmented max. Get a masking or power focus if you don't already have one, then you should be free to quicken other spells without having to worry about them getting dispelled by every ward you come across (as long as you remember to keep raising your initiation grade to compensate). I also recommend raising your Magic attribute when you can, which I've discovered to be quite helpful in a SR/ED pbp game I'm involved in. It gets to be worth it. I can't even begin to tell you how helpful it's been for my PC in that game to have the quickened Force 9 Levitate spell that he has. It was probably one of the best decisions I made in chargen for that character.

[Yerameyahu]

That's certainly a lot of careful prep and strategy, so I don't think I was being misleading on that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm surprised there's not some kind of real hard cap on these things, though. In typical play, it probably doesn't matter.

[Seerow]

Can you use edge on a spellcasting test for a spell you are quickening?



ie can you cast a spell like increase attribute at force 1, use an edge to break the cap, and get full hits added and quickened, while only paying the karma for a force 1 spell?

[Yerameyahu]

Sounds like a good way to get slapped by the GM, but I'd have to double-check if that's even how quickening works. It's bad enough when you do it with a sustaining focus.

[Dakka Dakka]

Can you use edge on a spellcasting test for a spell you are quickening?



ie can you cast a spell like increase attribute at force 1, use an edge to break the cap, and get full hits added and quickened, while only paying the karma for a force 1 spell?

I find no rule against it in the RAW, but Edge use for spells by RAW is not as good as you might think: Only Edge dice may bring the total hits above the cap (SR4A p. 182). So you would need an Edge of 6 or more to reliably get 4 hits on the spellcasting test.

[Irion]

Yes, you can. Because you are able to quicken any spell, you are sustaining.

@Dakka Dakka
Well, I guess thats not really a problem. You are normally not quickening spells with a force smaller than 6. (Would need around 18 dices to get that many hits)
But anyway it sucks a bit. The main problem is, that you now have a big issu with wards. So if you go down this road, you should do it really hard. Because ony quickend spells has exactly the same issues as 100.
So the only char really have a huge bonus from this metamagic, would be a free spirit. (Or a shapechanger)
Since both have dual natured from the start.
The free spirit even more, because he is unable to use ware so magic loss is nothing you have to consider. So you might just go for magic 7 and quicken a few force 8 spells.
Depending on how you handle the increase attribute spells, combat reflexes, increased reflexes on the mana plane, this is highly effective.

[Dakka Dakka]

I was specifically commenting on Seerow's idea of casting a spell at Force 1 and using Edge to still get the desired amount of hits. Since only edge dice can exceed the cap, you need a lot of edge dice to get from 1 to the desired amount unless it's 2. This problem has nothing to do with the spell being sustained or quickened.

Using this procedure on quickened spells may even be worse because lower Force spells have more problems with wards than higher ones. The hits on the spellcasting task make no difference on this roll.

The proposed spell (Increase Attribute) won't even work at Force 1 unless the attribute to be increased is 1.

[Irion]

Sorry, I was not paying much attention.
I should not think that no one would be that silly to use force 1 spells and quickening.
They will never be functional at all.

[pbangarth]

So the only char really have a huge bonus from this metamagic, would be a free spirit. (Or a shapechanger)
Since both have dual natured from the start.
The free spirit even more, because he is unable to use ware so magic loss is nothing you have to consider. So you might just go for magic 7 and quicken a few force 8 spells.
Depending on how you handle the increase attribute spells, combat reflexes, increased reflexes on the mana plane, this is highly effective.

Well, many of those spells are Physical, and therefore do not carry over to the astral plane. This is a big limitation for Free Spirits, one of whose main advantages is the ability to go astral and materialize/possess.

[Slithery D]

Do people really think extended masking saves quickened spells from wards? I always thought of the masking only hiding them from perception, not actually "merging" them into your aura in a such a way that a ward wouldn't still engage a masked spell going through it.

[Irion]

Well, many of those spells are Physical, and therefore do not carry over to the astral plane. This is a big limitation for Free Spirits, one of whose main advantages is the ability to go astral and materialize/possess.

As a matter of fact, thats not certain. You are unable to cast them on the astral plane, but if you may carry them with you is a big question mark.
RAW you can, because "changing the plane" is not a possibility to break spells, RAW.
(Not to mention that most of them would also be perfactly sane as mana spells. (Even better since you would not be able to cast them on drones. Which is silly but according to RAW(as far as I know) allowed.)
Yes, it is silly, but (and thats the catch) there are physical spells working/having an effect on the astral world. Mana static for example.
@Slithery D
Not really. Wards do not have to see the spells disrupt them.
The only way is to use masking to mask the aura of the creator of the ward. Everything else is quite useless.
Well, the other possibility is to just take force 7 or 8 spells and roll around 21 to 24 dice against the ward. (Force*2+Karma)
But this way, you will trip the alarm.

[Sephiroth]

Do people really think extended masking saves quickened spells from wards? I always thought of the masking only hiding them from perception, not actually "merging" them into your aura in a such a way that a ward wouldn't still engage a masked spell going through it.

I disagree with that logic. That strikes me as trying to bring physical world logic into the rules for the astral world. A ward might be the best astral equivalent to a wall, but that doesn't actually make it a wall. Perception and magical links are some of the most important things to metaphysical stuff in SR. So if a ward doesn't "perceive" something that it would otherwise try to oppose, it shouldn't go ahead and oppose it anyway. Perception is everything when it comes to magic.

[Yerameyahu]

Magic is arbitrary. For all we know, a ward *is* a wall. Choose the version that's better for the game, but neither is more defensible.

[Slithery D]

I disagree with that logic. That strikes me as trying to bring physical world logic into the rules for the astral world. A ward might be the best astral equivalent to a wall, but that doesn't actually make it a wall. Perception and magical links are some of the most important things to metaphysical stuff in SR. So if a ward doesn't "perceive" something that it would otherwise try to oppose, it shouldn't go ahead and oppose it anyway. Perception is everything when it comes to magic.

But if extended masking your spells/foci into your aura makes them immune to wards, masking your astral form into a non-astrally active regular aura should also let you pass through a ward; it doesn't "see you" to engage you. That's clearly nonsense...

[pbangarth]

But if extended masking your spells/foci into your aura makes them immune to wards, masking your astral form into a non-astrally active regular aura should also let you pass through a ward; it doesn't "see you" to engage you. That's clearly nonsense...

It is certainly true according to the rules that one can use the Masking metamagics to align his own aura to that of the maker of the ward, or anyone else she has approved to freely move through the ward. (SM page 124) After that, he can indeed walk right through, and with Extended Masking he can do this even if he has active foci and spells.

In terms of 'perceiving', I do think it may be overstating the case to say that a ward uses Perception or Assensing to detect magical entities. The ward is magical and simply exists, occupying astral and physical space. That causes problems for anything else magical trying to occupy that space.

EDIT: Sorry, something happened.

So, the confusion comes with the ability of masking to make an intruder look like someone allowed through. All mundanes are allowed through by their nature. Why can't someone (and his magical gear) made to 'look' mundane by Masking be accepted? It is not clear at all.

[Sephiroth]

But if extended masking your spells/foci into your aura makes them immune to wards, masking your astral form into a non-astrally active regular aura should also let you pass through a ward; it doesn't "see you" to engage you. That's clearly nonsense...

Emphasis mine. That would not work in any case, because as explained on the first page of the astral space chapter of SM, there is a definitive difference between astral forms and auras. Auras are insubstantial, with no actual presence in the astral plane. Astral forms, on the other hand, are substantial and do have a solid presence in the astral. So you can't disguise your astral form as an aura, because your astral form is still solid (not to mention a lot brighter than an aura). I think of it kind of like this: Imagine that you have a ball of iron, and you want to throw it past a very strong magnet. Coating that ball of iron in a thick shell of ice and throwing it past the magnet will not suddenly make the ball of iron not magnetic. It's still magnetic, and will still be affected by the magnet, even though it looks like a ball of ice instead of iron now. And spells are auras, not astral forms. In any case, the description of Masking in SR4A says that you'd have to disguise yourself as another astrally active creature like a spirit, IIRC.

[Sephiroth]

In terms of 'perceiving', I do think it may be overstating the case to say that a ward uses Perception or Assensing to detect magical entities. The ward is magical and simply exists, occupying astral and physical space. That causes problems for anything else magical trying to occupy that space.

EDIT: Sorry, something happened.

So, the confusion comes with the ability of masking to make an intruder look like someone allowed through. All mundanes are allowed through by their nature. Why can't someone (and his magical gear) made to 'look' mundane by Masking be accepted? It is not clear at all.

Sorry, I wasn't being terribly clear. By perception, I mean things like line of sight and whatnot, and how if you cannot see something or otherwise have no magical link to it, you can't affect it with magic. I didn't actually mean that the ward uses the Perception skill. My mistake. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

Agreed, it's not clear. Perhaps Demonseed Elite et al. would be able to clear that up.