[X] My Assistant

[Aerospider]

It could? How is that? Base Availability is a very clear cut delineation.

Sure, all of the factors you described are true, but the same holds true for every other item. Someone with one rank in Aeronautics mechanic, Armorer and Pilot Aerospace could claim his character has built a satellite, built a Thor shot for it, and flown it into space, with a rocket he built himself, while returning with the drop pod he built himself.
Leaving the monetary picture out of the question, would this allow him to skirt availability rules? I don't think so.
So why should spells be any different?

Character generation does not care how you came about the things you have, just that you're paying the listed price for them.

Exactly, and there are no availability ratings for spells so you can't be denied them at chargen. Which is fine by me incidentally.

[Mardrax]

Exactly, and there are no availability ratings for spells so you can't be denied them at chargen. Which is fine by me incidentally.

There are Availability ratings for formulae though, which you need to get the spells themselves. Wether or not you yourself write the forumlae doesn't matter for their Availability. And none of the basic ones surpass Availability 12, so all are chargen-valid. War! chooses to be a special snowflake though.

[Aerospider]

There are Availability ratings for formulae though, which you need to get the spells themselves. Wether or not you yourself write the forumlae doesn't matter for their Availability. And none of the basic ones surpass Availability 12, so all are chargen-valid. War! chooses to be a special snowflake though.

As I understand it (not having the book myself) War! has spells for which the formula/tutor availability is doubled, bringing some above the 12 max for chargen. If so, would you ban a player from starting with said spell on the grounds that he would have had to have laid his hands on something too rare in the past? Bear in mind that the character is not intending to own the formula or have access to a tutor for said spell, they just want to know the spell.

I maintain that applying the chargen availability cap to a character's history is not RAW or even RAI, so therefore no spell is off-limits to starting characters since spells themselves have no availability rating.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

As I understand it (not having the book myself) War! has spells for which the formula/tutor availability is doubled, bringing some above the 12 max for chargen. If so, would you ban a player from starting with said spell on the grounds that he would have had to have laid his hands on something too rare in the past? Bear in mind that the character is not intending to own the formula or have access to a tutor for said spell, they just want to know the spell.

Yes, I would apply the Availability Limits. To do otherwise is odd...

I maintain that applying the chargen availability cap to a character's history is not RAW or even RAI, so therefore no spell is off-limits to starting characters since spells themselves have no availability rating.

Then why would a character not be able to start with a Gauss Rifle, or Muscle Toner 4, or Power Focus 5? They are from his past, so he should have them with no penalty. And spells DO have a rating. They are based upon their formula. You need a formula to learn a spell. See Below Quote:

Given the proliferation of magical information on the Matrix, learning from formulae has become the default method of learning new spells. Finding a spell formula is as easy as checking the Matrix.

Now, you CAN learn from another Magicain (as long as you honor the master/apprentice dynamic). But, since that tradition has fallen by the wayside, Learning via Formula is the method that is generally used. And, to have a Formula, you must obtain it. Thus Availability. IF you DO want to have a Master/Apprentice relationship, I would STILL make you satisfy the Requirement, because that is what a Master would do to an Apprentice. There are no "Free" things in Character Generation. You must still satisfy the requirements of Availability. See below Quote:

All gear is subject to gamemaster approval—just because you can purchase something doesn’t mean you should be allowed to get it at the start of the game. Finally, no piece of gear purchased at character creation can have a rating higher than 6 or an Availability higher than 12 (for more information, see Availability & Buying Gear, p. 312).

Spells rely upon Formula, and Formula are Gear. Thus, you must satisfy the Availability Requirement for said Spells to learn them.

Anyways.

[Mardrax]

As I understand it (not having the book myself) War! has spells for which the formula/tutor availability is doubled, bringing some above the 12 max for chargen. If so, would you ban a player from starting with said spell on the grounds that he would have had to have laid his hands on something too rare in the past?

You understand correct.
And meh. I rather choose to not allow things from War! from chargen at all. I tend to keep a tight leash on players getting milspec stuff, especially when some of it's as notoriously broken as the Slow spell that raise the issue here.

But hey, you're right in the end, it's not an Availability on the spell, so technically it'd be valid. I could see the opposite being RAI though. Either case, YMMV.

[Aerospider]

Then why would a character not be able to start with a Gauss Rifle, or Muscle Toner 4, or Power Focus 5? They are from his past, so he should have them with no penalty. And spells DO have a rating. They are based upon their formula. You need a formula to learn a spell.

Characters cannot start with those items because they are gear and subject to their availability ratings as per the Gear section of the Creating a Shadowrunner chapter. Spells aren't even on the same page (literally). I never said spells don't have a rating (give me SOME credit!) nor is this even about the rating limit. Nor is it about starting the game with a spell formula, which is subject to the availability limit because unlike spells they do have an availability rating and are classed as gear. Spells however are more akin to skills than gear.

You must still satisfy the requirements of Availability. See below Quote:

I'm afraid to say that quote does nothing for your argument. As I say - spells are not gear, they do not have availability ratings and are not purchased (at least not with nuyen).

Spells rely upon Formula, and Formula are Gear. Thus, you must satisfy the Availability Requirement for said Spells to learn them.

No. Learning spells relies on formula (and even that is not strictly true). Starting characters do not have to worry about learning spells any more than they have to worry about summoning and binding the spirits they start with or obtaining restricted items without a fake ID. And I'll say it one more time: spells do not have availability ratings. They are dealt with separately at chargen and there is no text I can find nor have been shown that ties them into the availability rating restriction, so to do so is inference not RAW.

Call it rules-lawyerage. Call it a loophole. Call it game-breaking, counterintuitive or born-to-be-house-ruled-out-of-here.
As much as YMMV, it's still RAW and though we can equally debate the best way to do things, only RAW debates can be conclusively decided.

[Aerospider]

But hey, you're right in the end, it's not an Availability on the spell, so technically it'd be valid. I could see the opposite being RAI though. Either case, YMMV.

Amen.

[TheOOB]

Just a note, most magicians can cast a spell or two when that awaken, so there is a precedent to knowing spells you've never seen the formula for.

[Modular Man]

In my opinion, applying spell formula availiabilities to spells a character starts with would be the same as saying "Well, all laser weapons have an availiability higher than 12, so no Exotic Ranged Weapons: Laser Weapons for you." I see spells a lot closer to skills than to gear.

Anyway, back on topic: I think you could drop the First Aid skill, too. The character makes, equipped with a good medkit, a decent secondary mundane healer. His spell is even more powerful. Of course, healing the damage caused by unresisted drain can be quite effective, but with said good medkit he gets up to a dicepool of 11 under optimal conditions anyway.
You could consider 'ware as well. A chaos mage may not be too worried about foreign materials in his body, and you can get a lot of use out of one lost point of magic. I often use the cerebral booster to get better attributes to resist drain. A choice of style, of course.
Also, a pistols skill is, as already mentioned, always worth it. If your character gets into combat in an area with high background count, he may end up nigh helpless - nothing but his magic gets him out of combat safely. Dodge, too. Being able to resist or quickly heal damage isn't worth not getting hit right up front.

[Mardrax]

In my opinion, applying spell formula availiabilities to spells a character starts with would be the same as saying "Well, all laser weapons have an availiability higher than 12, so no Exotic Ranged Weapons: Laser Weapons for you." I see spells a lot closer to skills than to gear.

Anyway, back on topic: I think you could drop the First Aid skill, too. The character makes, equipped with a good medkit, a decent secondary mundane healer. His spell is even more powerful. Of course, healing the damage caused by unresisted drain can be quite effective, but with said good medkit he gets up to a dicepool of 11 under optimal conditions anyway.

Except knowledge of certain spells is actually restricted or forbidden in certain jurisdictions.

Also, you don't get perfect conditions for First Aid, pretty much ever, especially if your aim is to help yourself recover from Drain. Plus you need three hits to even heal one box of damage.

[Modular Man]

Is it forbidden to know them or just to use them? I appararently haven't read that (or glanced over it), where is this from?

You are right about First Aid. Yet this would be the first thing I'd cut if I was in need of more points (to be used for combat skills, for example). How much damage from drain does one want to heal anyway? Those modifiers can also be minimized if you take your time to look for a safe and clean spot to do it - First Aid takes time anyway, so I wouldn't recommend it much in combat. Get someone capable to assist you, and things look somewhat better.
Sadly, First Aid is somewhat poorly written. You can only heal an amount of damage boxes equal to your skill rating, a medkit acts as the skill if you don't have it. So by strict RAW, you can heal more damage without a skill than with it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) This asks for an immediate houserule, I'd say...

[Korwin]

Slow is a widely hated spell and I would not expect your GM to allow it, or at the very least I would expect to use the German version that isn't bullet-stopping.

Well the German version of Slow doesnt exist.
Instead there is an Mass-Levitation spell.

[Stingray]

Is it forbidden to know them or just to use them? I appararently haven't read that (or glanced over it), where is this from?

You are right about First Aid. Yet this would be the first thing I'd cut if I was in need of more points (to be used for combat skills, for example). How much damage from drain does one want to heal anyway? Those modifiers can also be minimized if you take your time to look for a safe and clean spot to do it - First Aid takes time anyway, so I wouldn't recommend it much in combat. Get someone capable to assist you, and things look somewhat better.
Sadly, First Aid is somewhat poorly written. You can only heal an amount of damage boxes equal to your skill rating, a medkit acts as the skill if you don't have it. So by strict RAW, you can heal more damage without a skill than with it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) This asks for an immediate houserule, I'd say...

I would then use rules from Augmentation p.124 " The maximum number of boxes that First Aid can heal is the Rating of the medical
equipment or the First Aid skill of the character, whichever is higher"..