[X] My Assistant

[Yerameyahu]

Because, as we've already said, you (player) can't do it. And thank god you can't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Seerow]

Because, as we've already said, you (player) can't do it. And thank god you can't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Meh, I actually really dislike that you can't. Why shouldn't a runner who has the relevant skills be able to over time piece together a lab that lets him make his own stuff? In game, there's no reason why he shouldn't be able to. In game, as long as the long term investment is steep enough it doesn't pay for itself right out the gate at character generation, I don't really see the problem with it.

[Yerameyahu]

I do agree with you. But for every reasonable, balanced, long-term application, there are a thousand versions of 'LOL i got Essence 0.01 for free!' builds. I'd rather have nothing than bad rules, and I don't think I'm being unfair when I assume that's what we'd have. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) In that last post, though, I was specifically referring to what they described as 'so easy, everyone should do it'.

[Irion]

@Seerow
Because the results are mostly horrible. It ends up having standard and deltagrade only 4 to 5 hits appart from each other.
Like: Make a logic+medicine roll[2]
For each net hit increase the grade or something like that.
(Well, I guess I just use edge for two additional hits and if the mage is sustaining "increase logic" I go delta easy.

[Yerameyahu]

It should be a huge extended Threshold, with each grade applying an exponent. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Irion]

Well, to bad there is not a single exponent in the hole rules...

And looking at the rest of the rules I guess you are right: Better there are no rules.

[Seerow]

@Seerow
Because the results are mostly horrible. It ends up having standard and deltagrade only 4 to 5 hits appart from each other.
Like: Make a logic+medicine roll[2]
For each net hit increase the grade or something like that.
(Well, I guess I just use edge for two additional hits and if the mage is sustaining "increase logic" I go delta easy.

I'm not saying current rules are good. Hell, current rules are more or less nonexistent. I was just commenting the lack of rules is something that's always really bugged me, because I think crafting is a viable option for something PCs should be able to do during down time. Of course, it should be a relatively long term deal, not something for instant payback. In fact I wouldn't even mind if it wasn't strictly profitable unless you were planning to go into business selling the stuff



Personally if I were going to ad lib crafting rules I'd do something like:
-To craft an item you need a facility
-For Cyber/Bio facilities can be bought in Alpha/Beta/Delta grade, these have cost multipliers just like cyber of that grade. (So a delta facility would be 1,000,000 nuyen)
-To create the item, you must first have the formula/schematic to do so. You can generally get these off the Matrix for 25% the price of the item. You can alternatively take time to research this yourself, but it is a test with an interval in weeks. In the case of Bio/Cyber, Beta and Delta grade formulas must be researched individually for each person. This, in conjunction with the higher facility costs, is why deltaware is so goddamn expensive, because the scientists working on it have to go out of their way to make a new piece for every single new customer.
-Once you have the formula, you can create the item, this requires materials worth about 50% the cost of the item. In the case of Cyber/Bio, this is 50% of the standard value. (The majority of the cost of delta comes from the facility and needing to research the schematic for every individual piece. The materials themselves are actually more or less the same)

The actual time intervals and thresholds would need to be hashed out in more detail than I could do in something off the cuff like this, but the idea would be to have it so only someone particularly skilled with everything in their favor could do deltaware, and anyone with some training can do normal, then set the scale in between for the rest.

[Yerameyahu]

See, look, you're *already* cheating. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) *Base* cost for delta? Delta is made of totally different, high-quality materials. Hehe.

[Irion]

And this is why "building rules" are so hard to pull off.
You are "cheating" very, very fast.
But it is the same in other games two.

Forging a sword in some fantasy games goes sometimes also like that:
So, finished. Now I have used a bar of metall I bought from half the reward of the last adventure and after one day offtime work I have a sword worth twice as much as we made during the last 10 adventures. (Or maybe even worse)

[Yerameyahu]

Right. Crafting rules always suck, it's like a law of the universe. It's hard to write good rules (useful, appealing, balanced).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Right. Crafting rules always suck, it's like a law of the universe. It's hard to write good rules (useful, appealing, balanced).

Which is why a lot of games just don't bother. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Seerow]

See, look, you're *already* cheating. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) *Base* cost for delta? Delta is made of totally different, high-quality materials. Hehe.

Honestly, after paying 25% and wasting a month researching a unique formula, paying another 50% of actual cost, plus facility cost, plus more time actually making the thing, would end up just being a waste of time.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, there's a reason people don't make their own microprocessors and artificial hearts and things. :/

[Rubic]

That last rule wasn't half bad for explaining why cyber gets so expensive at higher grades. And when you factor in all of the costs so far, you're treading a big deficit out of the gate, and that's BEFORE factoring in the cost of surgery (Delta Grade is likely too delicate to leave for machines alone to install, and even a technomancer would be unable to self-install such ware).

[Yerameyahu]

It also depends what your time is worth, and so on. If you're paying 25% of the *real* delta cost, and *then* doing the research for the customizing, and then you're paying *real delta* surgery costs, then maybe it's okay. Gotta run the numbers. Still, delta really is made out of better materials than standard.

[Rubic]

It also depends what your time is worth, and so on. If you're paying 25% of the *real* delta cost, and *then* doing the research for the customizing, and then you're paying *real delta* surgery costs, then maybe it's okay. Gotta run the numbers. Still, delta really is made out of better materials than standard.

It's just my estimate that doing all of this yourself would cost more, in terms of not just money but time as well, than just paying the standard cost. The pay out would be in the security (as long as you can trust the surgeon).