[X] My Assistant

[kzt]

The thing about that, is that as I understand, there are a number of political types in the southern states that would support the name, regardless.

There might be, but everything I've seen is that they are shrinking. It's like pro-Nazi types in Germany. They attract attention, but they are a powerless minority. And I'm not kidding, if you seriously proposed something like that and had the power to push it through you'd be dead by the end of the week. And they would walk in court. It's like a proposal in Israel to create an organization named T4 to "deal with" mentally impaired people and handicapped children.

[suoq]

Every one of them would see you as the personification of evil, you'd be dead in a week after you seriously proposed such a plan. I don't care what you intended, including any variation of the word Confederacy in the title is bad.

1) There are 3 other Confederations by then. (Canton 2018, Swiss and Italian 2022).
2) By 2032 do we still care about skin color? It's been 11 years since Goblinization. Can't we have moved on to new things to hate by then?
3) It's not like the Civil was was the only time areas in the U.S. were a Confederation. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation )

[Ascalaphus]

1) There are 3 other Confederations by then. (Canton 2018, Swiss and Italian 2022).
2) By 2032 do we still care about skin color? It's been 11 years since Goblinization. Can't we have moved on to new things to hate by then?

There's been lots of historic Confederations. But not in America; the name's tainted there. (The Swiss Confederation has been there for centuries IRL, but nobody minds.)

And if goblinization means white and black team up against green, that's even more reason why allusions to the historical CSA are bad politics, because I don't think many black people remember the CSA fondly.

The idea of states splitting off from the UCAS isn't absurd, but they'd do it for stuff like States' Rights or tax reasons, and they wouldn't want people thinking about slavery.

[CanRay]

2) By 2032 do we still care about skin color? It's been 11 years since Goblinization. Can't we have moved on to new things to hate by then?

I had one person describe Humanis as a combination of the KKK and the Black Panthers getting together.

And Canada had Confederation as well, BTW, and it had nothing to do with skin colour at all. (Well, red-skins weren't properly represented... But that's nothing unusual at the time.).

[suoq]

There's been lots of historic Confederations. But not in America; the name's tainted there.

Wampanoag Confederacy
Powhatan Confederacy
Illinois Confederation
Iroquois League
New England Confederation
United States of America under the Articles of Confederation (1781–1788)

And, as noted, Canada.

My main point of disbelief though, is "Them ain't us." Treating Shadowrun like it's based on our 2011 is a bit difficult because it isn't. They elected Jesse Garrety as President of the U.S. in 2008. Their Twin Towers still stand (unless I missed something).

------------

To respond to the below post. Is your real argument that the U.S hasn't had a split off Confederation in the entire time that it hasn't has a split-off anything? If so, I concede to the truth of the statement without actually understanding your point.

The word "confederation" has meaning and that meaning has nothing to do with "slavery".

[Ascalaphus]

Wampanoag Confederacy
Powhatan Confederacy
Illinois Confederation
Iroquois League
New England Confederation
United States of America under the Articles of Confederation (1781–1788)

And, as noted, Canada.

My main point of disbelief though, is "Them ain't us." Treating Shadowrun like it's based on our 2011 is a bit difficult because it isn't. They elected Jesse Garrety as President of the U.S. in 2008. Their Twin Towers still stand (unless I missed something).

All those are from before the Civil War though. And they're not named to remind you of the CSA.

[CanRay]

Canadian Confederation: July 1, 1867.

EDIT: While it might not piss off folks in the US, the Quebecois are still mighty freaked out.

[kzt]

What would people think is implied by a phrase like "The final solution to the welfare problem"? There are some words and phrases that have sufficiently strong emotional reactions in enough people that to use them automatically discredits you.

[ravensmuse]

I don't know how many of you folks are down South (I'm new to my area, myself) but there's still a sense of pride in Ol' Dixie, even here in Kentucky. And I think - given the time period, and given the political atmosphere - that there might be a sense of national pride in naming themselves that.

I think that you guys give a little too much credit to the "slavery" aspect of it, and not enough of national pride / identity.

But that's me.

[HunterHerne]

I don't know how many of you folks are down South (I'm new to my area, myself) but there's still a sense of pride in Ol' Dixie, even here in Kentucky. And I think - given the time period, and given the political atmosphere - that there might be a sense of national pride in naming themselves that.

I think that you guys give a little too much credit to the "slavery" aspect of it, and not enough of national pride / identity.

But that's me.

I pretty much agree with this. In fact, I have nothing to say against it.

[Nath]

Treating Shadowrun like it's based on our 2011 is a bit difficult because it isn't. They elected Jesse Garrety as President of the U.S. in 2008. Their Twin Towers still stand (unless I missed something).

You missed something. According to the Neo-anarchist Guide to North America (written around 1990) describes the Fuchi Towers that replaced the World Trade Center. The book implies the 2005 earthquake destroyed the WTC, though the actual wording never stated so. I think there is one actual mention of September 11, 2001 attacks somewhere in a book (SOTA:2064 ? Not sure...).

The argument stays valid though.

[Sengir]

The word "confederation" has meaning and that meaning has nothing to do with "slavery".

The word "euthanasia" also has a meaning and that meaning has no negative connotations, which is why most languages around the globe have adopted the word or another word rooted in it. Except for Germany. Here, "Euthanasie" was how the Nazis called their programme to murder "unworthy life", and the word has invariably become connected with that. If a German says "Euthanasie", he's either talking about history or invoking Godwin's Law.

[CanRay]

Like the editors of the "Ring Of Fire" series has to keep reminding authors, "The town shifted in 2000. Pentium 2s running Windows 9X. Clinton still being president.", and so on.

[EKBT81]

Lifespans. I actually like goblinzation and the fact that different races have different races as children.

The "forever young" theme is AFAIR the main reason for anti-elf prejudice. By having elves age at the normal human rate IMHO the game would lose an interesting variant of anti-meta racism.

[Krojar]

So humans would have no problem with elves even though they are taller, more beautiful, more inclined to magic, and have (or had) super meta-racist countries of their own but have the same life span? And no humans would look down on Orks if, on top of having tusks etc, they live significantly shorter than humans?

I think there can be plenty of prejudice without dealing with the much more complex change of a society that includes a much longer living minority race. Even when I run D&D, no race lives much longer (or shorter) than humans because the concept is never treated with any resemblance of realism. THe only time I've ever seen it done properly is Dragon Wing by Weis and Hickman.

[Ascalaphus]

So humans would have no problem with elves even though they are taller, more beautiful, more inclined to magic, and have (or had) super meta-racist countries of their own but have the same life span? And no humans would look down on Orks if, on top of having tusks etc, they live significantly shorter than humans?

I think there can be plenty of prejudice without dealing with the much more complex change of a society that includes a much longer living minority race. Even when I run D&D, no race lives much longer (or shorter) than humans because the concept is never treated with any resemblance of realism. THe only time I've ever seen it done properly is Dragon Wing by Weis and Hickman.

I think most of us like the different lifespans, because they cause interesting effects. The long lifespan helps to top off the "superior elves" vibe, along with fears among humans that eventually corporate management will be full of people with +2 Charisma who never get old enough to retire, creating an "Elven Ceiling". On the other hand, orks' shorter lifespan and rapid physical maturation creates troubles in schools: imagine your human daughter of 12 in school with 13 year old orks who are already taller than you are, and fully in the grip of hormonal rage.

Differing ageing isn't necessary for prejudice, but it's a very nice reason for it nonetheless. Also, I think it just "belongs". Elves should be long-lived, just like they should have pointy ears and be slender; that's part of calling something Elf. Otherwise they're just snooty and different, so it's pretending the French are a different race.

[Korwin]

Correct link, four posts down the thread.

[Ascalaphus]

I'm a little surprised, nobody posted this link yet...
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?=52446

"The topic or post you requested does not exist"

[Korwin]

Should work now, missed a "t".

[Seriously Mike]

Nope, still doesn't work, you fixed the main text, but not the link itself.

[Korwin]

I'm a little surprised, nobody posted this link yet...
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=52446

WTF, now it SHOULD work...

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

So yes, considering that canon says that Magic is rare and somehow related to genetics and millions (billions?) of nuyen have been spent by corporations and governments on the study of Magic I would say that rebooting to something where EVERYONE is Awakened is quite silly.

Which is of course perfectly fine as your opinion, but not in any way more valid.

What we're talking about here is radical changes TO the canon. Making everyone awaken IS a radical change to the concept, but could easily be fixed in an occurance akin to the matrix crashes - The Awakening 2.0, now for everyone, strictly without warranty.

[Stahlseele]

WTF, now it SHOULD work...

does work.

[TheWanderingJewe...]

As an observation from the Midwest on a possible break up and reboot for SR.

I could see a Atlantic states region and a New South region real easy in a SR break up. I do technical and server support for people all over the states and The two areas have completely different sub-cultures governed by a over-culture. The Midwest would probably be more sympathetic to the New South.

New Regions (Sans NAN)

The UCAS
The CAS
Midwest Region: Composed of former US States past the Missouri, the Sioux territories, and several of the former Canadian Proviences.
SouthWest Free States: The American Desert SouthWest, Most of Northern California, Montana,Idaho
Pacifica: Washington, Oregon, So-Cal, British Columbia

I can't speak to how Canada Would balkanize more, so I'll give that a pass

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Which is of course perfectly fine as your opinion, but not in any way more valid.

What we're talking about here is radical changes TO the canon. Making everyone awaken IS a radical change to the concept, but could easily be fixed in an occurance akin to the matrix crashes - The Awakening 2.0, now for everyone, strictly without warranty.

Well, point taken, but if your reason to change the fluff is just because the latest edition turned the mages extremely superior mechanically when the older editions did not, it's just better to fix it than change the entire timeline.