[X] My Assistant

[CanRay]

I'd fail any requirements for military service in any country with a military worth belonging to. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[ravensmuse]

*rolleyes* I'm sick of hearing that excuse for churning out low-quality product.

Oh, I agree with you. You've read my thoughts on the last couple of books they've put out Hermit, and you know that's not what I'm saying.

The root of what I'm saying is that you're not bound to what the company publishes, some dude whines about on the internet, or what a cult of personality has declared verboten. None of these groups sit in on my games, so they have no input in what I run or play.

If you don't like something, don't buy it. That's all it comes down to. If you don't agree with them, ignore them. I know it's a general cliche, but these people aren't going to come to your house and burn your books in front of you; I've got quite the stack of oWoD books that are still somehow mysteriously hanging about, after all. And maybe if enough people agree with you, the company notices and starts making changes.

...or they reboot the character / whole line, because characters are getting married / having kids / getting older, certain characters / legacies aren't white, *cough*, classic enough, and the whole world is just "too confusing" for new readers to understand.

That's the fate of a reboot, and I dread it.

ETA: I forgot to add that any of my comments only apply to the American version of Shadowrun. Germany and Europe has had some...weird....metaplot forced upon them by translation groups, and I don't begrudge them at all for wanting to get rid of it.

[hermit]

The root of what I'm saying is that you're not bound to what the company publishes, some dude whines about on the internet, or what a cult of personality has declared verboten. None of these groups sit in on my games, so they have no input in what I run or play.

Only if your group is living in a bunker with no outside access. No man is an island. If one of your players bought and read Bogota! and wants to have some stuff from it (say, softweave armour because the encumberance rules in SR4 are the clusterfuck they are), you have an influence right there. If one of your players reads these or other forums and finds something worth bringing up with all fo you, you have an influence. You can't just decree yourself isolated. That never works.

If you don't like something, don't buy it. That's all it comes down to. If you don't agree with them, ignore them. I know it's a general cliche, but these people aren't going to come to your house and burn your books in front of you; I've got quite the stack of oWoD books that are still somehow mysteriously hanging about, after all. And maybe if enough people agree with you, the company notices and starts making changes.

And the best way to make the company notice is to shut up, don't complain, talk positive and what, pray for god granting them insight? The best way for a company to notice you is to make a stir (no, sales won't work without input, because a drop in sales in itself doesn't tell the company anything).

...or they reboot the character / whole line, because characters are getting married / having kids / getting older, certain characters / legacies aren't white, *cough*, classic enough, and the whole world is just "too confusing" for new readers to understand.

That's the fate of a reboot, and I dread it.

Oh, I'm fully with you there. I took this as an intellectual exercise, nothing more. However, I like nWoD margianlly better, myself. A little less on the sparkly fetish fuel side.

I forgot to add that any of my comments only apply to the American version of Shadowrun. Germany and Europe has had some...weird....metaplot forced upon them by translation groups, and I don't begrudge them at all for wanting to get rid of it.

Interestingly enough, by now the German editions are a lot better than American product. Not least because they all get Errata'd upon print, but also because the current team is cleaning house with the setting's local metaplots. It's in reverse right now; the inane metaplot events are coming from America.

[ravensmuse]

Only if your group is living in a bunker with no outside access. No man is an island. If one of your players bought and read Bogota! and wants to have some stuff from it (say, softweave armour because the encumberance rules in SR4 are the clusterfuck they are), you have an influence right there. If one of your players reads these or other forums and finds something worth bringing up with all fo you, you have an influence. You can't just decree yourself isolated. That never works.

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm lucky two ways - one, I've got relatively new players to Shadowrun, and only one buys supplements, and two, they're friends that trust me. I already explained the Catalyst Situation to them the first time we gave Shadowrun a spin, so they know the spiel.

Besides, they're friends first, gamers second; if they absolutely, positively want to use something from newer books, I'll talk to them about it. It's all about maintaining an environment where that sort of thing is encouraged.

And the best way to make the company notice is to shut up, don't complain, talk positive and what, pray for god granting them insight? The best way for a company to notice you is to make a stir (no, sales won't work without input, because a drop in sales in itself doesn't tell the company anything).

You make some strange extrapolations from what I say, Hermit. Especially as you yourself have backed me up in the numerous Catalyst threads from last year.

I haven't shut up about it, and if you've noticed, I keep a link in my sig as to why I don't buy new Catalyst products. It's just that you want your signal to be higher than your noise, and going into every thread having a nic fit about Catalyst would make me boring and Dumpshock a boring place to be. So I don't; I try to be respectful. But I do call the Emperor on his clothes when I get the opportunity to (haven't said a word about Spy Games because Attitude was my third strike, so I don't even want to go the effort of acquiring it. So what would I contribute to that conversation? More mudslinging? No thank you.).

Oh, I'm fully with you there. I took this as an intellectual exercise, nothing more. However, I like nWoD margianlly better, myself. A little less on the sparkly fetish fuel side.

You're talking to someone slowly piecing together a Vampire 1e collection (found a mint in box copy of the first edition of the LARP rules at a Goodwill the other day, was ecstatic) and has a huge Werewolf: the Apocalypse, Wraith: the Oblivion and Changeling: the Dreaming collection. Someone who is willing to use both Freak Legions and Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand. I'm not going to take offense to this (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Interestingly enough, by now the German editions are a lot better than American product. Not least because they all get Errata'd upon print, but also because the current team is cleaning house with the setting's local metaplots. It's in reverse right now; the inane metaplot events are coming from America.

You've talked to me before about the German metaplot. I think it would be really awesome if you German / European posters would make a thread detailing some of the metaplots from your respective translations. I think we've gone into Shockwaves!!! before, but you've said something about a fluffy dragon they found, and I'd love to know more about SOX, GeMiTo, the Black Forest Kingdom...share the wealth, man.

[Ascalaphus]

While in Germany for a festival I took the opportunity to pick up Schockenwellen and Deutschland in der Schatten II (because Schockenwellen recommended it). But is Deutschland in der Schatten II any different from Germany in the Shadows (II)? I get the feeling I've read some of this stuff before.

[Redjack]

4. Discussion of politics, religion, and sex are prohibited, except as they directly pertain to Shadowrun or another game. Discussions on these subjects will be watched closely, and any inappropriate posts may result in warnings or suspensions.

The partisan trash talk can cease immediately. Find a way to discuss the topic without it or we'll close the thread and issue more administrative warnings.

[ravensmuse]

Uh...?

[Redjack]

Hermit's post two back.

[ravensmuse]

Kay, I guess I didn't see it myself. No worries, last post regarding the subject.

[Redjack]

Sorry wrong post. It was 3 back. The is the inflammatory, partisan post I was referencing.

The Tea Party and it's neofascist, white supremacist constituency?

This board has members from across the political spectrum and politics is clearly an off-limits area. Posts which take a more clinical approach to the timeline is one thing...

[Krojar]

Actually, without rebooting the ENTIRE timeline (which I have neither the time nor inclination to do), here are the minor changes I made.

1) No CAS: Way dumber than the concept of the NAN. The split off never happened and UCAS is about 40% bigger. Amazing how little this affects the story.
2) Elimination of Shiawese: This is part and parcel of the reduction of the influence of the Japanacorps. Two MCs was reasonable and Renraku is too tied up with the main storyline to eliminate so it came to an aesthetic choice between Yakuza Inc and Japanese Family Dynamics Inc. I picked the Yakuza Inc and merged much of the politics and corporate specialties into Wuxiing. I also replaced their spot with a slightly beefed up United Omnitech (the most interesting of the AAs) and made up a new AA to take their place.
3) No age differences between metatypes: Over idolizes elves and makes orks less desirable. I kept IEs though.

[Elfenlied]

3) No age differences between metatypes: Over idolizes elves and makes orks less desirable. I kept IEs though.

Could you elaborate on that? Are you talking about lifespans, or the first occurence of elves/goblinization etc.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

I'm asking honestly: are you serious, or just trolling?

Yeh, well... I'm giving an opinion while trying to be at east partly funny.

I do believe the following, though:

Essence is crap as a fluff element, while I agree that a mechanical element like that might be necessary. The idea that the body couldn't take more than a certain number of implants is plain ridiculous, at least as long as implants are properly designed. I still think money should be the main balancing factor. Perhaps reinvent essence as a sort of systemic pollution, or immune-suppressant problem, where cheaper implants produce more of it, OR go back to the dangers of DNI stress, as was eventually determined in SR3 - but this time with the re-balancing and cost redo that should be necessary. For instance, direct DNI like a datajack should have a large impact, while bone lacing actually has none at all.

I also believe that making everyone awaken could be an interesting continuation of the original SR story - or a convenient way to solve balance issues under a rework/redesign. The whole mages are rare thing was always bullshit anyways - or else you played magicrun all the time. And once every enemy grunt team has a mage to at least give them a fighting chance at resisting, then it's a small step to give everyone a magic attribute and access to counterspelling. People don't HAVE to develop it, in fact, I would stick with very basic magical training for most of the population.

[Redjack]

1) No CAS: Way dumber than the concept of the NAN. The split off never happened and UCAS is about 40% bigger. Amazing how little this affects the story.

This is one I've gone back and forth on since Shadowrun came out. Gut instinct was that this was simply a writer taking the civil war, civil war re-enactors, continued cultural differences and said "Looky what I made". Given time to consider, the continued and widening rift between supporters of centralized and de-centralized government and other factors, I can see how this would gain momentum. I had been unclear on what leverage would actually allow it to come to fruition. The effects of the Great Ghost Dance were the obvious show of force required for the creation of the NAN. The upheaval in the early 30's, the formation of the UCAS... all less dramatic, but I could see it happening. ( My $0.02 )

[Critias]

*rolleyes* I'm sick of hearing that excuse for churning out low-quality product.

Hermit, it's gaming advice I've been giving for about fifteen years now, not something that I just started saying when War! hit shelves or something. It's also been "rule zero" in a whole fucking ton of RPGs for years and years, but I guess every single one of them was just churning out low-quality product, right?

[Sengir]

And publish SoLA. And change the German setting entirely to something along the lines of CP2020's take, putting more emphasis on the Fourth Reich vibes Tom Dowd initially had in mind

Sure, so you can have a field day complaining about Nazi sympathies among the editors and offensive characterizations (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Nath]

The upheaval in the early 30's, the formation of the UCAS... all less dramatic, but I could see it happening.

The 2029 Virus crushed a good chunk of US/UCAS economy, and the southern states were going to end of the wrong side of the deal to rebuild the country. Also, the decision to intervene or not in Europe as Russian troops enter Germany could be a hot political topic, blurring party lines and reshuffling cards.

That is, if the Eurowars still happen in he reboot, which would not be necessarily a good thing.

[kzt]

Edit: In knew I should have left Hermit on ignore.

[CanRay]

Edit: In knew I should have left Hermit on ignore.

Wait... We can ignore people on the Internet?

...

I wonder how many folks have me on ignore... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

[kzt]

This is one I've gone back and forth on since Shadowrun came out. Gut instinct was that this was simply a writer taking the civil war, civil war re-enactors, continued cultural differences and said "Looky what I made". Given time to consider, the continued and widening rift between supporters of centralized and de-centralized government and other factors, I can see how this would gain momentum. I had been unclear on what leverage would actually allow it to come to fruition. The effects of the Great Ghost Dance were the obvious show of force required for the creation of the NAN. The upheaval in the early 30's, the formation of the UCAS... all less dramatic, but I could see it happening. ( My $0.02 )

Every one of the tens of million of black people would actively desire your death just for the name. The make up a decent percentage of the police and other security services. Evey one of them would see you as the personification of evil, you'd be dead in a week after you seriously proposed such a plan. I don't care what you intended, including any variation of the word Confederacy in the title is bad.

The general idea of that region forming a separate nation isn't nearly as insane, though it's pretty out there.

[Ascalaphus]

Every one of the tens of million of black people would actively desire your death just for the name. The make up a decent percentage of the police and other security services. Evey one of them would see you as the personification of evil, you'd be dead in a week after you seriously proposed such a plan. I don't care what you intended, including any variation of the word Confederacy in the title is bad.

The general idea of that region forming a separate nation isn't nearly as insane, though it's pretty out there.

This... a "States' Rights" splitoff from an overweening federal government is worth talking about. But naming it after something pro-slavery is just stupid.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Yeh, well... I'm giving an opinion while trying to be at east partly funny.

I do believe the following, though:

Essence is crap as a fluff element, while I agree that a mechanical element like that might be necessary. The idea that the body couldn't take more than a certain number of implants is plain ridiculous, at least as long as implants are properly designed. I still think money should be the main balancing factor. Perhaps reinvent essence as a sort of systemic pollution, or immune-suppressant problem, where cheaper implants produce more of it, OR go back to the dangers of DNI stress, as was eventually determined in SR3 - but this time with the re-balancing and cost redo that should be necessary. For instance, direct DNI like a datajack should have a large impact, while bone lacing actually has none at all.

I also believe that making everyone awaken could be an interesting continuation of the original SR story - or a convenient way to solve balance issues under a rework/redesign. The whole mages are rare thing was always bullshit anyways - or else you played magicrun all the time. And once every enemy grunt team has a mage to at least give them a fighting chance at resisting, then it's a small step to give everyone a magic attribute and access to counterspelling. People don't HAVE to develop it, in fact, I would stick with very basic magical training for most of the population.

Well, I played Shadowrun only on the even editions (2nd and 4th) and while I do agree that stunballs/bolts and manaballs/bolts can be EXTREMELY powerful, I don't remember them being so in 4th edition, so I would say it is more a matter of how magic was designed in 4th edition than anything else. So yes, considering that canon says that Magic is rare and somehow related to genetics and millions (billions?) of nuyen have been spent by corporations and governments on the study of Magic I would say that rebooting to something where EVERYONE is Awakened is quite silly.

[HunterHerne]

Every one of the tens of million of black people would actively desire your death just for the name. The make up a decent percentage of the police and other security services. Evey one of them would see you as the personification of evil, you'd be dead in a week after you seriously proposed such a plan. I don't care what you intended, including any variation of the word Confederacy in the title is bad.

The general idea of that region forming a separate nation isn't nearly as insane, though it's pretty out there.

This... a "States' Rights" splitoff from an overweening federal government is worth talking about. But naming it after something pro-slavery is just stupid.

The thing about that, is that as I understand, there are a number of political types in the southern states that would support the name, regardless. Don't really want to touch on the politics of education, but it is getting worse in America, so there is no real guarantee the ones who might make a huge fuss would make a big enough fuss to make people care. But, that is my 2 cents.

Edit: By america, I mean North America. Canada is getting worse off, as well. I've actually had a conversation where I needed to explain what the Holocaust was...

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Edit: By america, I mean North America. Canada is getting worse off, as well. I've actually had a conversation where I needed to explain what the Holocaust was...

This pretty much happens anywhere with the exception of Europe. Most people really don't care about history, specially if it is a history that involves people you've never met from another continent. It is quite different when your grandparents, parents and other relatives can actually say "I remember when France was invaded by Germany in the spring of 1940..."

Anyway, back on topic. As others mentioned, I dread any "reboots", specially the way reboots are made by american companies that lead with a fictional universe. I like to say that Marvel has a program that keeps checking the timeline of each new edition of their Universe and there are lots of flags to determine when the universe must be rebooted, stuff like:
1- Peter Parker is no longer a teenager, young adult living on a low-budget. If he gets married with kids and a good salary, it is time to reboot.
2- Jean Grey has died more than 3 times already.
3- Wolverine remembers ALL of his past perfectly.
4- There has been more than 10 time travels from the present to the future and vice-versa.
And the list goes on.

So, instead of changing the "ancient history" of Shadowrun I would vote instead for explaining it better.

[Krojar]

Could you elaborate on that? Are you talking about lifespans, or the first occurence of elves/goblinization etc.

Lifespans. I actually like goblinzation and the fact that different races have different races as children.