Runners vs street scum, Difference between shadowrunners & hired goons Options

[Saint Hallow]

SR takes place in a dystopia. A world filled with all kinds of morals gone flying out the window. However, my main thing is through most of the SR books, novels, etc... the thing that separates a Shadowrunner from a hired goon off the street is a number of things...

1. A Code. Runners get the job done in a professional manner. No matter what the drek goes flying, the complete the operation or take it as far as it can go.
2. Killing. Runners aren't sadistic murderers. While having no qualms about putting a bullet through the head of someone, they don't go carefree killing everyone in their path. Unless it's a black-op/wetwork job, no one needs to get killed. Corporations hate paying death benefits... & it's always possible that the victim had a family who calls in a favor from someone to get revenge.
3. Skills. Goons off the street are tough and resourceful, but they're not specialists. Runners have the skills to do the things that the corner mugger can't. Hacking. Demolitions. Laying down precise cover fire as ex-fil is going on.

So... when I play my game & I butt heads with the GM about some aspects, he bringing up how the world of SR is a dystopia & we're not being amoral enough. I fire back with how Runners are pro's & work a delicate balance on staying above the street level hoods & not becoming corp/government operatives.

I would like to know everyone else's take on what exactly constitutes being a Shadowrunner & what "moral" (if any) codes runners take to separate/distinguish themselves from the rabble.

[kzt]

It depends. In the classic pink mohawk game everything you say is false, the PCs leave a trail of bodies and blown up and burned out buildings behind them, and their opposition is composed of Inspector Jacques Clouseau leading the Keystone Kops.

[CanRay]

With a bureaucratic system right out of the movie "Brazil".

[suoq]

SR takes place in a dystopia.

I'm sorry, but at worst, it's a post-dystopia. The almanac has the UN almost giving all sapients rights. Even ghouls want their rights now.

I would like to know everyone else's take on what exactly constitutes being a Shadowrunner & what "moral" (if any) codes runners take to separate/distinguish themselves from the rabble.

I don't kill or torture anyone unless.
1) I'm being paid to.
2) I find it necessary to complete a job I'm being paid to do.
3) I find it necessary in order to protect myself.
4) I feel the person deserves it.

The main difference between myself and a street level hood is:

Warehouse loft
Comforts: Middle, Entertainment: Middle, Necessities: High, Neighborhood: Middle Security: High
Qualities: Easy-Going Landlord [1LP], No Neighbors [1LP], Workplace [1LP], Network Bottleneck [-1LP]

Yes, it's expensive, but it's worth it and so am I.

As for moral codes, I'm not being paid to be "moral". I'm paid to be discreet, effective, and to work within someone else's comfort zone. Where the rabble tends to be caught, ineffective, and works best within their own territory.

[TheOOB]

I don't think that shadowrunners are moral so much as professional. They're not going to look in the secret package Johnson is having them deliver, they're not going to cause a bunch of heat and dump it on Johnson, and they won't quit a run unless absolutely necessary.

[CanRay]

Some have a moral code, some don't. Some are professional, some write their name in the wall with a belt-fed weapon.

They are the people that DO NOT FIT INTO NICE LITTLE BOXES! And are damned proud of that very fact.

[TheOOB]

Some have a moral code, some don't. Some are professional, some write their name in the wall with a belt-fed weapon.

They are the people that DO NOT FIT INTO NICE LITTLE BOXES! And are damned proud of that very fact.

They make caskets big enough for trolls

[CanRay]

You really think there's going to be enough left to bury?

[Synner667]

It depends. In the classic pink mohawk game everything you say is false, the PCs leave a trail of bodies and blown up and burned out buildings behind them, and their opposition is composed of Inspector Jacques Clouseau leading the Keystone Kops.

Actually, in SR v1-3, the novels and "flavour" text actually have no psycho-rabid dogs as characters - most of the stories involve a fast moving dark world a few steps from ours, where people very much do have morals and are often professional [Argent, Dirk, Sally, Sam Verner, etc are definitely not about leaving trails of bodies].

The no-holds barred shooting everything that moves and amorality is a player driven thing, and not SR driven [except for the trainwreck that's SR 4].

Such a "dystopian" world doesn't function.

[Glyph]

Shadowrunners are elite specialists who get their name because they do work that the corporations want done, but not traced back to them. They tend to be more augmented or more powerfully awakened, better equipped, and more skilled than common criminals - but because they are a title that common criminals aspire to, you will have lots of thugs and wannabes calling themselves shadowrunners.

In some campaigns, the line between runners and street punks will be blurred - runners often start out as more common criminals.

They tend to get slightly more subtle jobs than thugs. If the Johnson can get the job done with a half a dozen orks with Uzis, then he will do that rather than pay extra for pros.

[Ascalaphus]

I personally like the "professionalism" and "personal code" themes. I think that people good enough to be called shadowrunners should be so rare, that they can afford a personal code. And, to some degree, that code prevents them from becoming scum and falling into the kind of traps scum falls into.

It's a bit romantic, but then RPGs are make believe. Compare it to film-noir; an ice-cold character who makes no mistakes, has no limits to what he'll do has a much harder time being a sympathetic character than the detective who has limits, who sticks out his neck for what he believes in.

Should characters be "more amoral"? They should be willing to do the basic job of shadowrunning: high level espionage, sabotage, extracting (involuntary) employees. That's not the same as terrorism, casual collateral killing or sadism/torture - you don't have to be willing to do those, although some shadowrunners are willing.



Are there advantages to playing a principled runner? Maybe - maybe people regard you as a better, or less-bad person. Maybe you've got fans, or admirers in the secret/security community. It might count in your favor if you're ever apprehended. But it's probably not a big advantage in any obvious sense.

But I think there's something nice about being proud of not being a total scumbag, of being a professional who doesn't do the barbaric stuff. Playing a more sympathetic character and being proud of being light grey in a dark grey world.

[Traul]

Actually, in SR v1-3, the novels and "flavour" text actually have no psycho-rabid dogs as characters - most of the stories involve a fast moving dark world a few steps from ours, where people very much do have morals and are often professional [Argent, Dirk, Sally, Sam Verner, etc are definitely not about leaving trails of bodies].

The no-holds barred shooting everything that moves and amorality is a player driven thing, and not SR driven [except for the trainwreck that's SR 4].

Such a "dystopian" world doesn't function.

They might not be in the short stories, but there are gangers and eco-terrorists in the archetype list in SR3 at least.

[Irion]

Well, it is quite hard to have a feel real dystopia with powerfull characters.
Thats always a big problem.

In a dystopian setting you only can be a hero for a longer period of time, if you fail most of the time.

Thats the players chasing a serial killer/sadist/rapist/blood mage but only finding the bodys of his victims, because of the lack of infrastructure (maybe the manage to save some but the subject gets away).

Thats the players smuggeling weapons for a genocide unable to do something about it afterwards.

Thats the players trying to get back to the guy who beat his wife in a koma only to find afterwards, that he was connected and got his wife and her family murdered for telling on him.

Or it just could be the character getting a little look at the powers to be and beeing pushed back outside, realising he did not change anything. (Thats even holding true if he is revarded for his bravery, showing that the powers to be have resources to waste just to feel a bit more superior than they already do)

Thats why I agree with suoq, at most it is a post dystopia.

From the novels I have read there are only a few, really fitting the darker term.

It is pink mohawk without the balls to be pink mohawk.
You have some guys invading a building with a minigun and posing as they are special forces before instead beeing just plain honest and give them their earned pink mohawk.
If you characters act like punks, make them punks. If your characters are supposed to be an ex-seal team, make them act like one. (At least that much so someone with no military background does not want to hit his head on the table.)
Shadowrun has the same issue a lot of RPG have. Trying to work too many angles.

[Midas]

I like where you are coming from Saint Hallow, but the truth is that some folks prefer a pink mohawk approach (guns ablazing, take no prisoners) to my preferred black trenchcoat style (softly softly, leave no traces). It seems your GM is inclined to the pink mohawk side of things, but what about the other players?

Actually you raise a very good point regarding death/injury compensation that I have often wondered about. If security grunts next of kin get insurance payouts if they are killed on the job, runners that leave a whirlwind of death and carnage behind them might have the insurance agents coming after their arses (as an insurance company, you don't want to leave such a group around so you have to make a multi-million payout in the next company these gutter punks attack). If there is no life insurance for security guards on the job, they will be extremely timid against runner-level opposition as the last thing they want is to leave their family bread-winnerless and destitute in dystopia. What gives?

[Irion]

Insurance is one point. The mafia has no insurance, as far as I know. But if you kill a hand full of mafia enforcers, you are in a lot of hurt I guess.
Megacons are less companys and more empires. In a world of sharks it is bad to seem weak.

So yes, the most important aspect of the black trenchcoat is "a hell of a payback if you leave a mess", I agree.

This does not mean they will go all berserk for blown up shack with some money loss but no deathtoll.

Because there is always the possibility of getting caught. And shooting some kids in the head for destroying some tools worth a few thousands bucks, does not look good.

Shooting a punch of guys, responsible for killing 4 police officers/guards gets you a much better representation.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Hmm, I think the only CODE a runner needs to have is the one to get the job done without messing around.

Personally, my runners tend to be fairly nice guys, who are only ruthless towards people whom they think deserve it, but that's just a personal preference. Mostly runners in our groups have been regularly amoral, with a firm conviction that you can kill whoever won't be missed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

[Traul]

Personally, my runners tend to be fairly nice guys, who are only ruthless towards people whom they think deserve it, but that's just a personal preference. Mostly runners in our groups have been regularly amoral, with a firm conviction that you can kill whoever won't be missed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

You mean nameless NPCs?

[Psikerlord]

I think SR allows for a range of characters, pink mohawk to super spy and any other odd concept you can think up (we once had a PC who wanted to be a vampire and got augmentations that made him vampire-like, including teeth and claws - it was weird but memorable and quite themeatic!). The OP's team might be a mix of personalities - some have codes, some don't, etc. The GM should be flexible enough to accommodate different PC approaches.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

You mean nameless NPCs?

I killed a PC and all I got was this lousy t-shirt

[Ascalaphus]

I think playing an idealistic runner is quite viable. You can be a corp-hating anarchist, and be a shadowrunner. You will take jobs to sabotage one corp for another's benefit; with the money you can acquire the guns you'll need for the Revolution. Sure, you're benefiting a corporation, but only by hurting another one.

So yeah, a runner like that wouldn't like a job to get rid of annoying peace activists. But he might consider corporate security to be willing stooges, and have no trouble gunning them down.

So many possibilities (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

You mean nameless NPCs?

There is a disconcerting tendency to directly attribute this to social status: Offing homeless bums, for instance, who just happened to pick the wrong car-park to escape from the rain, doesn't seem to trigger any conscientious response.

Likewise, the lives of street whores don't have any value whatsoever. There were repeated suggestions for hiring a cheap hore to seduce a guy and then off her so she couldn't talk. I find the easy way the PLAYERS talk about this, to kill a person who was probably knee deep in shit from day one, whose only offence was to be a victim all her life, and likely as not hardly voluntarily,... well... pretty scary, actually. It's de-humanization at work, simply by looking at social status. On the other hand, captured drug dealers, failed johnsons and other, seemingly more important people, are dumped alive.
Maybe it's what the movies educate you to do: In most movies, you immediately know which characters you are supposed to sympathize with when they die, and which not.

In response, I usually have my characters equipped with an extra large social conscience. They have fewer problems with offing guards and cops than with nameless poor sods.

[Loch]

Doesn't matter if you're a wiz chromed-up runner or a chip-head slum rat, either way odds are good that you don't have a legitimate SIN. That's supposed to be a pretty big thing in the setting. Without those digits, you don't exist in the world of the corps. Sure, as a runner you may be able to get a good fake, and even live a pretty good life that way, but all it takes is a good enough security system to tag your SIN as a fake and the plush rug gets pulled out from under you. Corpsec, the Star, The Man in general doesn't really care about you if you don't have a SIN. So why do runners have issues with killing cops but think nothing of bombing an orphanage or kidnapping a hooker if it gets their job done? Whose side are runners really on? The SINner/SINless dichotomy is one aspect of the social scene in SR that I find really interesting, and I try to work it into my characters whenever I can.

[Critias]

There is a disconcerting tendency to directly attribute this to social status: Offing homeless bums, for instance, who just happened to pick the wrong car-park to escape from the rain, doesn't seem to trigger any conscientious response.

Likewise, the lives of street whores don't have any value whatsoever. There were repeated suggestions for hiring a cheap hore to seduce a guy and then off her so she couldn't talk. I find the easy way the PLAYERS talk about this, to kill a person who was probably knee deep in shit from day one, whose only offence was to be a victim all her life, and likely as not hardly voluntarily,... well... pretty scary, actually. It's de-humanization at work, simply by looking at social status. On the other hand, captured drug dealers, failed johnsons and other, seemingly more important people, are dumped alive.
Maybe it's what the movies educate you to do: In most movies, you immediately know which characters you are supposed to sympathize with when they die, and which not.

In response, I usually have my characters equipped with an extra large social conscience. They have fewer problems with offing guards and cops than with nameless poor sods.

One group of people has a SIN, and as such legally exists. One group doesn't. While player characters taking a cavalier stance to morality and ethics is, well, standard player character fare in any RPG, really -- the simple truth is that in Shadowrun's society, they're right. Someone without a SIN is a lot more likely to eat a bullet than someone who legally exists, and/or who is a drug dealer or other "important" person (who's more likely to have contacts enough to track down and punish PCs for killing them).

GMs can always wreak merry havoc with that line of thinking by just happening to make that whore the kid sister of a hotshot company man, or just happening to have that down-on-his-luck whino be a former Shadowrunner who fell on hard times, or whatever...but by and large, offing the folks society has deemed disposable, as opposed to the ones society has deemed valuabe, just means your PCs are thinking about consequences a little bit. Killing a whore but letting a drug dealer live? That's just reasonable business practices.

[Loch]

If you're trying to be altruistic in Shadowrun (an often fatal endeavor, I know), it makes more sense to kill the cops rather than the whores. Those cops have a salary, a captain that (at least partly) cares for them, and most importantly, access to medical benefits. A cop gets shot, he can probably be revived by the DocWagon people, with whom he has a standing contract, or better yet, the trained medical staff of the corp he's part of. The hooker has nigh on zero probability of receiving medical care for her wounds without direct intervention. You'd be completely justified in shooting down corpsec goons because "hey, they're company men, they have insurance". The problem from a pragmatic point of view is that the people with insurance probably also have executives who provide that for them, and don't like to see bloodshed cut into their profits. So while it might at least be somewhat justifiable to gun down suits but spare the urchins, for most people it's just good business sense to do the opposite.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

The SIN/SINless thing is a big factor, although actually, at some point that guy WITH connections is a lot more likely to come after you if you let him live. I also wouldn't overestimate the value a SIN gives you within society: After all, once you're dead, you're worthless, again. While getting back at the murderers, and not letting chaos run rampant are valid concerns of law enforcement, remember that it's all for a profit, too.

Now luckily for both cops and corpsec we have the "one" ammunition that is better than all the rest, which will hopefully leave them alive in a firefight.

It's going to be interesting what my runner's will do with the couple of drug cartel execs they have/will have to capture to question.