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> AI's & Old People, OAP's, AI's and sedative dosing drone wheelchairs..
S8N
post Sep 6 2011, 12:48 PM
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As character concepts go... mine can be... a little different at times...

Actively playing at the moment, running around Seattle with a Mage and Face / Rigger... and his bus...

Being a little short on Matrix usage... the mage being a technophobe...and the Rigger refusing to actually jump into his vehicle.. I thought I might as well go the whole hog... and totally immerse myself into the Matrix...

Enter S8N (Sigmal 8 November series casino security program) who grew a bit of self awareness and fled the confines of his original realm and out into the big wide matrix..

But.. to the team... he's Norman..

You see... on his way out.. I greased a few palms... got one guy out of a whole deal of trouble with the mega casino.. and moved him into a low key area of work, as a old people's home manager... moved my home node to there.. (who'd bother breaking into that one.. )..

To keep the home afloat.. I run.. get the cash, keep the server going and keep expanding as an AI..

Norman.. well... he's my front... I've got many drones.. including one of the drone controlled wheel chairs.. when I need to deal.. we load poor old Norman into the chair.. kick him full of sedatives.. and I've got 12 hours till he wakes up and wanders off..

So far.. none of them suspect a thing.. despite "norman's" detachment to the real world and general knowledge that would be available to most (what do you mean we can't find the mark's child at school at night.. why isn't he at the school all the time.. sleep? what?)..

Even after an impromtu run in at the retirement home.. and meeting Norman when he wasn't sedated (you can walk ? and talk ? what???).. they believe he's just split personality or something similar..

Still... so many possibilities.. and yes... I've been tempted with the whole "strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can possible imagine" line.. that and the resulting blackmail material on the other player for killing an innocent OAP...



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S8N
post Sep 6 2011, 01:08 PM
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Out of interest though, aside from the immunity to physical damage and the immunity of being a virtual program... what advantages does an AI have over a meat based hacker or technomage?

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Jhaiisiin
post Sep 6 2011, 05:42 PM
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Basically nothing. You can't take cyberware, you can't submerge, you can't get to 5 IP and unless you're a pilot origin AI, you can't run activesofts for your drones or even jump into them at all. It's an expensive, crippled way to be a hacker, which is nonsense since you're a matrix based entity. You'd think you'd have *some* advantage.
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LurkerOutThere
post Sep 6 2011, 05:48 PM
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I could be misremembering the rules (I've honestly never had anyone at my table want to play one) but I'd say being mostly un-killable is a pretty big benefit.
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Jhaiisiin
post Sep 6 2011, 06:01 PM
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True. But the flip side to that is trapped in a node that gets powered down and subsequently destroyed. It's a lot more difficult to arrange than shooting a PC, and pretty much has to be intentional dickery by the GM (or otherwise an oblivious PC not reacting to a pre-planned set of events laid out by the GM) to actually happen to an AI PC.

Still, a Matrix-born entity is less capable in the matrix than humans accessing it from outside? What? Yeah, I know this has been talked to death. AI's are for those who have a concept to play (which luckily is how I prefer my games).
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Saint Hallow
post Sep 6 2011, 07:03 PM
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I'm waiting for these kinda drones in SR to show up.
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S8N
post Sep 7 2011, 07:49 AM
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Wow I remember that Manga !

Not far off with "Norman", though the wheelchair is a little smaller !

In terms of hacking, any tips and tricks to be aware of? need to make the most of my limited pure internet being...
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Aerospider
post Sep 7 2011, 08:17 AM
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You mean your GM hasn't told you this stuff? Tsk tsk.

I do agree that AIs are limited in some curious ways, but they do have some advantages.

+3 to Matrix perception

Immunity to black programs, dumpshock and harmful TM echoes and some sprite powers

Innate programs which, though they cost karma to get up to max ratings, have several advantages

Several very desirable unique qualities

Matrix mobility - a hacker can't join the team remotely when they enter a wi-fi free facility, but you can

No need to sleep - RC describes realignment as analagous to sleep but it doesn't go so far as to say you need to do it every night like a metahuman. Since the sleep deprivation rules rely on Body (I think - AFB) I play it that AIs have a lot more time on their hands.


One major disadvantage is that Nuke is seriously bad news for AIs. Do NOT lose a fight to someone with that!
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Fatum
post Sep 7 2011, 08:21 AM
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Well, actually, AIs can easily be fixed,if you are willing to take the rules with a grain of salt.
For example, when I played an AI, we just agreed that an AI's home node can take upgrades similar in effect to hacker's cyberware (since, come on, it's the same hardware). Essence points represented the number of extension slots, basically. We also let AI characters buy AI qualities, not just the ones listed in RC, but the ones from UnW, too.
Worked pretty sweet.
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Fatum
post Sep 7 2011, 08:28 AM
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QUOTE (Aerospider @ Sep 7 2011, 12:17 PM) *
Immunity to black programs, dumpshock and harmful TM echoes and some sprite powers
Haha, right, AIs are immune to dumpshock for a reason.

QUOTE (Aerospider @ Sep 7 2011, 12:17 PM) *
Innate programs which, though they cost karma to get up to max ratings, have several advantages
What would the advantages be? You can't switch them for others situationally when you need other program options, they cost a bunch, you can't pirate them...

QUOTE (Aerospider @ Sep 7 2011, 12:17 PM) *
Matrix mobility - a hacker can't join the team remotely when they enter a wi-fi free facility, but you can
What? How can you as an AI access the areas where wireless is disabled?

QUOTE (Aerospider @ Sep 7 2011, 12:17 PM) *
One major disadvantage is that Nuke is seriously bad news for AIs. Do NOT lose a fight to someone with that!
Um, do we even know how Nuke works on AIs?
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fazzamar
post Sep 7 2011, 08:38 AM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 7 2011, 03:28 AM) *
What? How can you as an AI access the areas where wireless is disabled?


I haven't read the AI rules (never had a player want to play one and never had any interest myself either) so this is a shot in the dark, but catching a ride on a teammate's comm-link? Although, that runs the risk of the comm-link getting shot and you going poof doesn't it?
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Aerospider
post Sep 7 2011, 08:42 AM
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What do people think of this idea for AI PCs to make them a more impressive option?

Remove the natural maximum on the mental attributes. They can go higher and higher, free from the limits of biology and natural evolution, allowing baby AIs to grow into truly impressive synthetic intelligences.
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Aerospider
post Sep 7 2011, 08:59 AM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 7 2011, 09:28 AM) *
What would the advantages be? You can't switch them for others situationally when you need other program options, they cost a bunch, you can't pirate them...

They can't be infected and don't factor into processor load. I house rule that they can't be crashed either, but RAW doesn't disallow it.

QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 7 2011, 09:28 AM) *
What? How can you as an AI access the areas where wireless is disabled?

AIs can load themselves onto another node, removing themselves from a previous one. This could be a commlink, drone, or anything really. Thus they can remove the requirement for wireless contact with the Matrix outside the wireless shielding.

QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 7 2011, 09:28 AM) *
Um, do we even know how Nuke works on AIs?

There's no special rules about how it affects AIs, so if one gets frozen by Nuke and cannot take any Matrix actions it's pretty screwed since it can't even reboot its node.
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Aerospider
post Sep 7 2011, 09:04 AM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 7 2011, 09:21 AM) *
Well, actually, AIs can easily be fixed,if you are willing to take the rules with a grain of salt.
For example, when I played an AI, we just agreed that an AI's home node can take upgrades similar in effect to hacker's cyberware (since, come on, it's the same hardware). Essence points represented the number of extension slots, basically. We also let AI characters buy AI qualities, not just the ones listed in RC, but the ones from UnW, too.
Worked pretty sweet.

Not convinced that it is the same hardware, since augmentations specifically interact with and improve biological matter and acquiring such gear designed for an AI should be really very difficult, but I can see it working for game balance. Should the same be available for agents/IC?
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S8N
post Sep 7 2011, 09:44 AM
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Immunity to black programs is good in theory... but its amazing how often the hackers I run into seem to avoid those programs by some innate ability to realise they'd have no effect.. despite AI's not being generally known in our current state of play... perhaps a random roll on what the hacker uses in terms of his attack program..

In terms of Matrix actions, other than perception... would you say a AI is counted as Hotsimmed, VR's etc in terms of benefits to actions... seeing as they're never AR.. and have no use for Biofilters clogging up their connection speeds..

So far the characters been quite a good laugh, in so much that the other players have no idea, but do frown alot on some of the questions that come out of "Norman"..

Mmm Node upgrades = cyberware would be good.. as other than more drones and programs... there's not a lot that "Norman" needs in terms of expenditure.. and would be nice to grow his abilities that way...

So far, due to the BP available and the lack of needing to boost physical stats... Norman's rocking most of the standard programs at rating 6... though hasn't gone for anything custom in terms of ergonomics, agents etc.. mainly because I was unaware at the time and its the first time an AI has been used in the GM's games. Though I suppose as a newly sentient being, I'd not have thought about tinkering or customising software yet..

In terms of program payloads.. what are the best things for him to write for himself... given the lack of downtime.. I should be able to start coming up with custom software etc within a reasonable timeframe...

And... for defence of my home node... what do people recommend? recently got a bit of a beating from a hacker.. and would like to make sure that doesn't happen again..

Thankfully, in terms of my drones.. I've got a foolproof means of rearming them... nothing beats "Arts and Craft" day in the sunny hills home... rooms of OAP's filling magazine with fresh ammo... though, to be on the safe side, I've opted to not go for any exotic explosive ammo... last thing we need is Doris's arthritas to act up and rounds being dropped left right and center.. thats just asking for trouble !
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S8N
post Sep 7 2011, 10:11 AM
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P.S. Aerospiders my GM... So I blame him entirely ! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Aerospider
post Sep 7 2011, 10:21 AM
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QUOTE (S8N @ Sep 7 2011, 11:11 AM) *
P.S. Aerospiders my GM... So I blame him entirely ! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Sold out by my favourite player!! This will not be forgotten ...
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S8N
post Sep 7 2011, 10:22 AM
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Lol, gah... power cut in the old people's home and no battery backup... S8N slips away into nothingness through poor IT Support and lack of disaster recovery planning !
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Aerospider
post Sep 7 2011, 11:19 AM
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QUOTE (S8N @ Sep 7 2011, 10:44 AM) *
Immunity to black programs is good in theory... but its amazing how often the hackers I run into seem to avoid those programs by some innate ability to realise they'd have no effect.. despite AI's not being generally known in our current state of play... perhaps a random roll on what the hacker uses in terms of his attack program..

Black programs are quite rare (in my game at least) since they are outright illegal and only for the truly vicious and vindictive. I have also ruled that you would not know it if someone tried to use it against you since the program would simply fail. But maybe a Matrix perception test should be allowed (without the cost of an action).

QUOTE (S8N @ Sep 7 2011, 10:44 AM) *
In terms of Matrix actions, other than perception... would you say a AI is counted as Hotsimmed, VR's etc in terms of benefits to actions... seeing as they're never AR.. and have no use for Biofilters clogging up their connection speeds..

I have wondered this. By RAW they don't get the hotsim bonus, but perhaps they should.
What say you DSers?

QUOTE (S8N @ Sep 7 2011, 10:44 AM) *
So far, due to the BP available and the lack of needing to boost physical stats... Norman's rocking most of the standard programs at rating 6... though hasn't gone for anything custom in terms of ergonomics, agents etc.. mainly because I was unaware at the time and its the first time an AI has been used in the GM's games. Though I suppose as a newly sentient being, I'd not have thought about tinkering or customising software yet..

When I checked the first write up of your character I neglected that your System of 5 would prevent you from using your programs at rating 6. After the first session I did a bit of a re-write to include the Optimisation option to allow your programs to run 1 point higher than your System trust me, it is on there. Programs can have a number of options up to half the rating, so there is more tinkering you can do.
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Jhaiisiin
post Sep 7 2011, 08:26 PM
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Last time i saw this discussion happen, there was no overall consensus for the Hotsim bonus, but I would provide it. There was however discussion of a houserule allowing the Rating of a program to act like essence point, or more appropriately like power points provided by magic for an adept. It gave you that many items you could use on "program upgrades and addons" that improved the code of the AI to simulate certain bonuses, such as the encephalon or such. It was a fantastic way of letting them get upgrades similar to meat hackers without the upgrades only existing in the home node (because, really, how often are you going to be able to hack happily from only your home node, if it's not a comlink or drone or somesuch that the team takes with them?)

It may have been half rating in upgrade points, given there are so few useful ware items for a digital entity.
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Fatum
post Sep 7 2011, 08:43 PM
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QUOTE (Aerospider @ Sep 7 2011, 12:42 PM) *
Remove the natural maximum on the mental attributes. They can go higher and higher, free from the limits of biology and natural evolution, allowing baby AIs to grow into truly impressive synthetic intelligences.
I don't really think that matters, especially minding that you can't quickly boost attributes with implants by RAW. The thing is, unless you're playing an unusually long campaign or are unusually generous at handing out karma, your players are not making enough of either to up their primary, already high, attributes.

QUOTE (Aerospider @ Sep 7 2011, 12:59 PM) *
AIs can load themselves onto another node, removing themselves from a previous one. This could be a commlink, drone, or anything really. Thus they can remove the requirement for wireless contact with the Matrix outside the wireless shielding.
Doesn't seem like an optimal option, really - too dangerous. Besides, you can tag along as a meat hacker, why not.

QUOTE (Aerospider @ Sep 7 2011, 12:59 PM) *
There's no special rules about how it affects AIs, so if one gets frozen by Nuke and cannot take any Matrix actions it's pretty screwed since it can't even reboot its node.
And that's why I don't think that's quite how it works.


QUOTE (Aerospider @ Sep 7 2011, 01:04 PM) *
Not convinced that it is the same hardware, since augmentations specifically interact with and improve biological matter and acquiring such gear designed for an AI should be really very difficult, but I can see it working for game balance. Should the same be available for agents/IC?
Well, okay, right, some of the headware augs might be tied to human brainmeats too much, it was more of a balancing measure.
As to the agents - you could go that route, but they're kinda meant to be stupid and not quite on par with pro hackers by fluff if you ask me...
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Aerospider
post Sep 7 2011, 10:27 PM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 7 2011, 09:43 PM) *
I don't really think that matters, especially minding that you can't quickly boost attributes with implants by RAW. The thing is, unless you're playing an unusually long campaign or are unusually generous at handing out karma, your players are not making enough of either to up their primary, already high, attributes.

Good point. Shame.

QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 7 2011, 09:43 PM) *
Doesn't seem like an optimal option, really - too dangerous. Besides, you can tag along as a meat hacker, why not.

Hmm, also true. I guess it would just be good for going where only a drone can (e.g. tight air vent). Or by sneaking onto a legitimate person's commlink a catching a ride in perhaps? That would be quite sneaky.

QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 7 2011, 09:43 PM) *
And that's why I don't think that's quite how it works.

But it's exactly RAW. There's no exception made so that's how it has to work.
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Aerospider
post Sep 7 2011, 10:29 PM
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Another advantage of inherent programs is that they can go up to System x 2, which can get very high.
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Fatum
post Sep 8 2011, 07:23 AM
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QUOTE (Aerospider @ Sep 8 2011, 02:29 AM) *
Another advantage of inherent programs is that they can go up to System x 2, which can get very high.
Not realistically an advantage since War! upped the cap of conventionally available programs to 12.
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Mardrax
post Sep 8 2011, 07:54 AM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 8 2011, 09:23 AM) *
Not realistically an advantage since War! upped the cap of conventionally available programs to 12.

With limitations.
Also, (and I'm AFB here so mighht be mistaken) it means System can go up to 12. Which means technically AIs can go up to Rating 24 programs.
Power creep works both ways.
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