[X] My Assistant

[LurkerOutThere]

If someone bugs you comlink they know everything you do. And it's not exactly hard if you are a corp that can afford to hire really skilled people to hack the gear of a one-man show that is typically not a computer security expert. Like LS or KE. Which are sovereign nations and can essentially do anything they want to anyone who isn't seriously important.

There is a lot of "and then the magic happens" to make the society as presented work. If you sweat the details it all comes apart in your hands.

I'm going to go ahead and disagree there. A fixer by definition is a security expert, by nature of being what they are they know how to keep their coms secure and keep their traces hidden. A lot of that should fall into the relam of tradecraft but I would expect most of their comm gear to be well protected and compartmentalized. Hell they might even use good old fashioned paper and disposable comlinks.

[Mardrax]

The biggest thing that Shadowrun has always had a problem for me is the macro ones. Where do the people in the barrens (and therefore all these wonderful gangs and other types) get their money. To have the dystopia or post-dystopia you have to have a lot of people barely eeking out a living under horrible conditions. I just don't see that as sustainable in a situation where you lack any kind of welfare/relief/aid and have lost any pretense of sustainability.

Prostitution, robbery (which has gotten a lot harder sans credsticks. Still, rob stuff, instead of money), grand theft, borrowing from organised crime. Go gangs have a way of tearing down the safety rep of any bit of highway that happens to be in their turf for a reason. Plus, I heard devil rat on a stick can feed you for a day or two if you're satisfied with not being supersized. You just need to find them.

[Ascalaphus]

If you don't like soy, there's always soylent yellow and soylent red krill and mycoprotein. Besides, artificial flavorings are better than the real thing anyway, if you don't know better. Stop complaining (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[suoq]

Where do the people in the barrens (and therefore all these wonderful gangs and other types) get their money.

My assumption has been that they don't use money. They use variations on barter system and co-ops.
See also http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=35191 (Currency, rewards, bribes, and tips)

To have the dystopia or post-dystopia you have to have a lot of people barely eeking out a living under horrible conditions. I just don't see that as sustainable in a situation where you lack any kind of welfare/relief/aid and have lost any pretense of sustainability.

I don't think sustainability has been lost at all. I think traffic between Urban and Rural has simply ceased. Just because the NAN (government) doesn't want to farm, I don't see that to be any reason why people who were already farming would want to stop farming. Sure, they'll have to break out their Foxfire books and start doing some things the old fashioned way but given the insanity that was the cities in earlier versions of shadowrun, small rural communities should be able to survive with modifications. And someone's got to keep quail for all those quail eggs the people at luxury lifestyle are eating.

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As for fixers, I just don't see one person being able to remain secure. In the whole chain, he is the weakest link. The Johnsons (at least in Missions) are way to open about who they're working for as well. If they're going to be that open, they would be better off keeping the job in-house. I'd rather see the Johnson contact a known team leader through a known drop box and when that job is done that face goes away, changing their appearance and location. People talk about teams being pink mohawk, but security for a table should be set by the behavior of the people starting the job.

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It also fascinates me that for all the talk of soy, there's so little talk of rice. The two go hand in hand throughout history....

[Mardrax]

It also fascinates me that for all the talk of soy, there's so little talk of rice. The two go hand in hand throughout history....

Solid chance the blatant overproduction of rice in most major rice producing countries has been causing a further drop in groundwater than we're already seeing today, and the rice production being on its behind for the most part.

[Ascalaphus]

What do the SINless do for a living anyway? If the government and corporations don't hand out welfare anymore, where do they get stuff from?

Sure, some of them steal, and some of them beg, but that only works if there's people to give money to beggers or to mug. So is there a SINless economy, where actual value is produced?

[KarmaInferno]

This is probably one of the reasons why Corps permit certified credsticks to be widely available.

Without them sections of the economy would collapse.

Other than that, I dunno, maybe they use bottlecaps for currency?


-k

[CanRay]

*Is busy drinking a Nuka-Cola and keeping a firm grip on my leather bottlecap bag*

[suoq]

What do the SINless do for a living anyway? If the government and corporations don't hand out welfare anymore, where do they get stuff from?

Sure, some of them steal, and some of them beg, but that only works if there's people to give money to beggers or to mug. So is there a SINless economy, where actual value is produced?

I don't see why there wouldn't be.

In the early years, scavenging is a major form of planning. If you have 4 rural towns and 25% of the population dies, there's a chance for those towns to consolidate and there's a lot of extra equipment that can be used. Converting to biodiesel or other fuels will allow machinery to continue to run and lower population means leftover machines for spare parts. As time passes, modern technology will have to be replaced by more primitive technology but that's not hard. The main issues are setting up trade routes with other rural areas that produce things you need in exchange for things you have and they don't.

In later years, these areas can reform into semi-self sustaining economies by those willing to do the work. There may be trade, such as smugglers who trade weapons for beef or areas outside of cities who trade stolen goods for biofuel.

However, this large economy is unknown to the people who live in the enclaves. (This isn't a surprise, there are Amish communities in 28 states and the Canadian province of Ontario with a combined population of about 261,150 - http://www2.etown.edu/amishstudies/Populat...s_2009_2011.asp and most people know diddly-squat about them except how they appear in fiction.)

If you wish to introduce such an area to your campaign, I highly suggest finding old copies of Foxfire books (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxfire_%28magazine%29 ).

[Ascalaphus]

Gee, I thought there'd be a lot more Amish. Anyway, your tale sounds like it could work.

[Neraph]

So is there a SINless economy, where actual value is produced?

In the Redmond Barrens, it's Bottlecaps.


EDIT: Beaten to it... twice!

[Stahlseele]

An economy held up by drinking beer, soda and using broken bottles as wepons!

[CanRay]

An economy held up by drinking beer, soda and using broken bottles as weapons!

Damn, now I'm homesick.

[Stahlseele]

You a Hick? O.o

[CanRay]

You a Hick? O.o

I grew up in Northern Ontario. Goes with the territory.

[Stahlseele]

*shrugs*
aside from being a bit of a gun nut, you nerver did strike me as a hick personally *grins*

[CanRay]

Yeah, well, I grew up in the "City". I know a few High-Tech Rednecks, however.

[Draco18s]

“In 2007 U.S., the top 20 percent controlled about 84 percent of the wealth, while the bottom quintile controlled just 0.1 percent. The combined net worth of the bottom 40 percent, in fact, accounted for just 0.3 percent of the nation's wealth.”

Sounds fair to me.

[Sengir]

Shadowrun is a dystopia: It's over. Metahumans in Shadowrun have more rights than many people today.

And who is going to enforce those rights? The ones you pay, provided the other side does not pay more to prevent those rights from being enforced. Shadowrun has the classic cyberpunk distinction between a few who have the money and the sprawling masses who don't and hence are nothing but cattle for the haves.

Soy Food: There is plenty of good food. Even the first story in the SR4 book has a fishing boat (and you can buy one in Arsenal). Runner's Companion has piles of great food in their lifestyles section.

RC also states clearly that it takes a middle lifestyle to have real food every now and then, and being able to afford real food on a constant basis is considered high lifestyle.

[Tiralee]

This isn't a surprise, there are Amish communities in 28 states and the Canadian province of Ontario with a combined population of about....

Don't be silly, there's no such thing as the Amish. They're imaginary creatures, like Unicorns and the Eskimo. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Never underestimate barter, favours for favours and the smugglers.
No matter where you are, what to do or what hell-hole you're living out of, there will be trade, hording and then some sort of economy in short order.
The biggest hurdle is a mutually-acceptable medium of trade (currency) that parties can agree on and with which they can involve 3rd/4th parties.

Once currency becomes fluid, smugglers will move it to where the market demands it and then that becomes trade.

-Tir

[suoq]

RC also states clearly that it takes a middle lifestyle to have real food every now and then, and being able to afford real food on a constant basis is considered high lifestyle.

See Homegrown Farming, RC pg 162. All the food of a high lifestyle, available to people at a low.

[CanRay]

See Homegrown Farming, RC pg 162. All the food of a high lifestyle, available to people at a low.

Also, you can trust the food, mostly. Sure, they're Frankenstein Genetically Modified, but at least you know what pesticides and fertilizers you put into it. That it isn't pumped full of dyes and other additions to make it look good on the shelves. That it hasn't been irradiated for longer shelf life. And so on.

Perfect for the Anti-Corporate Neo-@ who remembers where most of our food comes from: AZT and Horizon!

[Neraph]

See Homegrown Farming, RC pg 162. All the food of a high lifestyle, available to people at a low.

It's quite easy, actually.

[CanRay]

It's quite easy, actually.

Here's another view of the same topic.

[Bull]

Don't be silly, there's no such thing as the Amish. They're imaginary creatures, like Unicorns and the Eskimo. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well hell. Since my job is Amish Taxi Driver... Hrmm. Where *is* my money coming from?

And I've said it before, i'll say it again. Don't try imposing the real world onto Shadowrun too hard. it breaks when you do. Always has, always will. Which is fine, since it's, ya know, just a game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bull