Cyberlimb vs. "Wearable" anthroform drone parts Options

[HentaiZonga]

So, what keeps an Essence-conscious Shadowrunner from taking the arm off of an anthroform drone, rigging an AR control filter that just accesses neural signals from that part of the subject's neural homunculus, and then strapping it onto their arm like a 20th-century prosthetic, but with full tactile feedback and neural control?

[Mardrax]

The fact that these control filters don't exist. You could jump into the device, but that would leave the rest of you unconsciuous.
I'm also assuming the processor of said anthroform drone isn't housed in the arm, and neither is the wire(less) interfacing component. So good luck actually controlling it. Or getting it to do anything at all.

[HentaiZonga]

The fact that these control filters don't exist. You could jump into the device, but that would leave the rest of you unconsciuous.
I'm also assuming the processor of said anthroform drone isn't housed in the arm, and neither is the wire(less) interfacing component. So good luck actually controlling it. Or getting it to do anything at all.

Well, considering I don't need the whole processor, just the part for the arm, and considering that drones often use parts interchangeable with cyberlimbs, I don't see why the limb wouldn't have its own motor control systems.

And if you say, "then it's a cyberlimb, not a drone", what makes it such?

[suoq]

1) Are you talking about adding a third arm or replacing a lost part of an arm?
2) Removable object is removable.
3) We don't have final say, the GM has final say.
4) Who does your character know who can do the job properly and keep the item repaired.
5) What makes it a drone or a cyberlimb is
a: Controlled by a Pilot program or rigger interface vs. Controlled directly by your nervous system.
b: the GM saying so.

[Fatum]

The fact that these control filters don't exist. You could jump into the device, but that would leave the rest of you unconsciuous.
I'm also assuming the processor of said anthroform drone isn't housed in the arm, and neither is the wire(less) interfacing component. So good luck actually controlling it. Or getting it to do anything at all.

Well, in fact, if you can link cyberlimbs to your motor cortex, there's no reason not to be able to rig the same executive mechanisms in a different arrangement.
But yeah, it surely enough won't be through any kind of AR - we're looking at DNI here. A datajack per limb - or maybe a simrig might work with specialized software to support that...

[Lanlaorn]

Well there is a powered exoskeleton type thing in Attitude, right? The Iron Will steampunk "accessory". It says to treat it as a vehicle for upgrades so you could go nuts with armor, weapons, whatever. Although IMO that thing crosses a lot of lines lol, it's super cheap at 3,500 nuyen and gives you 8 strength and whatever vehicle upgrade nonsense you can come up with, for only a -1 agility tradeoff. You have to use Restricted Gear to get it at chargen but it looks pretty crazy.

[Fatum]

Yeah, but exosceletons neither require a neural uplink nor provide neural feedback, something that makes cyberlimbs feel like your own.

[Lanlaorn]

Who cares? Take it off when you want to go feel the sea breeze or whatever. If you want to get "cyberlimbs" without essence in a rules legal fashion the Iron Will or to a lesser extent, Milspec Armor, is the way to go.

[Miri]

Doctor Octpus? Cyberlimb system built into a harness, datajack connected to your DNI with some Pilot programs with Fuzzy logic to help keep the extra limbs from flailing about.

[Jhaiisiin]

DNI via datajack will grant you conscious control over the limb or device, one at a time. DNI via direct neuralogical integration will give you unconscious control. The Datajack is a transfer medium for data. Connecting directly to the nerves is something else entirely.

[Modular Man]

Well, the biggest problem is that there are no specific rules for this, especially not when it comes to wiring things to your own nervous system via datajack or else. I can see this working with an external camera or something, acting like an additional eye, but an extra limb?
There is no specific AR filter to access only the movement of one arm - that might be the reason why these parts of the brain have to be wired to make a cyberarm work. On the other hand, from that moment this arm basically becomes a part of the body, thus costing essence.

Normally, you do have three options to control a drone: Issuing commands and let it work on its own, remote-controlling it via command program and jumping in.
Now an independently working limb probably is a bad idea, so issuing command won't work.
Every Action issued via remote control becomes a complex action. This will likely be unhandy.
Jumping in leaves the original body without motoric control. Maybe you can argue here that the body might move at the penalty of VR (-6 dice to about everything) if you disable the RAS-Override, but that's strictly hypothetical and really up to the GM. An exo-sceleton seems to be the tool of choice, you won't need your own muscles then (well, the Iron Will is kind of difficult here, as it presumably cannot move on its own). Those just tend to be neither stealthy nor subtle. They also simply provide strength boni, but nothing for agility - trivial with cyberlimbs.

Lastly, don't forget that essence is basically a balancing tool. Its fluff bends around that. So cyberarms are meant to cost essence, and a lot of it.

Yeah, but exosceletons neither require a neural uplink nor provide neural feedback, something that makes cyberlimbs feel like your own.

Drones can be upgraded with touch sensors to provide tactile feedback.

Oh yeah, and I like the Doc Ock-idea!

[HentaiZonga]

*nod* in this particular case, the goal is to find solutions for someone who cannot implant cyberwear (at all), and who can't wait around for someone to regrow both their arms.

So, a wacky metagame question: what's going to take more house-ruling - figuring out how to rig a pair of AR-controllable drone arms, or figuring out the dice pool penalties for being armless?

[Jhaiisiin]

That's just it... it's almost impossible to do.

Here, try this. Think about walking. Don't do it. Think about moving one leg, then the next, but don't forget you have arms that have to swing in sync as well. It's *really* hard to think about doing it instead of doing it. But with external devices not actually connected into your nerves, that's exactly what you'd be doing. Your brain wouldn't subconsciously be supplying the commands to walk, as that isn't how the non-invasive limbs are set to function.

Additionally, remember that a cyberlimb isn't just attached at the stump. It's attached up into the supporting joints, such as a shoulder or knee or whatever. Your external prosthetic would have to be light enough (easily done in SR time) to be worn outside the body and anchored in such a way as to provide support when picking up objects or doing standard day to day activities. It's not going to be comfortable, or easily removed/put on, etc.

There are tons of reasons why this wouldn't reliably work, not at least with any semblance of the concept you're wanting, not the least of which is that in the SR universe, they don't have non-invasive prosthetic that are anywhere near as good as the cyberlimbs. If you want essence free non-cyberlimbs with the capability of their essence eating cyber counterparts, then more power to you and your game. In the end, it's up to you and your GM, but such a concept is not currently supported by the SR setting.

[Jhaiisiin]

I suppose if you wanted to give it a real shot, you could use trodes to pick up on the specific brainwaves being transmitted during the use of the motor cortexes and have those impulses interpreted and transferred to the limbs to let you walk and do the basics. However, I'd impose anywhere between a -1 to a -6 dice modifier to any actions using those limbs, depending on complexity, coordination and speed required. Actions that require a lot of coordination across multiple limbs would be impossible due to the lag time induced by the trodes->software->hardware jump of using the non-invasive limbs. So things like full on martial arts sparring would be right out if you were a multi-limb amputee. Similarly, dodging and leaping purposefully behind cover could be a serious issue depending on how many and which limbs are missing.

That's the best positive spin I can put on your idea.

[Dahrken]

Here, try this. Think about walking. Don't do it. Think about moving one leg, then the next, but don't forget you have arms that have to swing in sync as well. It's *really* hard to think about doing it instead of doing it.

Why do I think QWOP (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) ?

What is the purpose here ? If just you want something to restore minimal ability to have a normal life - things like taking a leak, wiping your ass, eating or opening a door - while spare parts grows in a vat, you can probably find or design "external" 'trode-controled hardware, I think it's possible even if there is no rules for that. As Jhaiisiin wrote, it should be low strength and low dexterity - rule-wise something like a cyberlimb with 1 in all physical attributes - but it's better than waving stumps around.

Alternatively, something like a Steed with an arm or two added on or an Orderly (or a jurry-rigged equivalent) may solve your problem without having to bend/break the rules. But if you expect an adept (or technomancer) to be able to get full functionality or even performance enhancement similar to cyberlimbs but without implanting them, I don't think it's likely to work.

[Mäx]

*nod* in this particular case, the goal is to find solutions for someone who cannot implant cyberwear (at all), and who can't wait around for someone to regrow both their arms.

Depending on how you rule(i assume your the GM) on limits of regeneration power, the character could just get a dose of Immortal Flower and watch as the regeneration power it gives him grows back his arms.

[KarmaInferno]

Eh. Modify a Arachne drone with a mechanical arm. Have cling to your shoulder. Rig it via AR. Done.



-k

[Wiseman]

Why can't you just rig an anthropomorphic drone? Have it follow you around, or stay in the van and send it in with everyone else. Zero essence cost and really doesn't even take much hardware/software to run it.

A guy running around with drone arms strapped to his shoulders is a great mental picture though. Makes me think of people who add giant spoiler's to the back of their honda four banger.

But let me ask this. Why arms? Might be more fun to custom a weapon to fit on the stump with a wireless trigger. Monofilament chainsaws can be fun. Shop smart, shop S-mart.

It really is the GM call. I personally would let it kind of work with some limitations. You definitely wouldn't have the coordination/control to swim or play tennis. I'd treat it more like you were remoting an arm hooked into some kind of backpack/harness. I.E. - complex action for everything.

[LurkerOutThere]

Of course thei biggest question in my mind are what are you going to attach this piece of tech to? Your skin? Your rib cage? Your arms are rigged the way they are for a reason and from an engineering standpointa lot of stuff goes into making them do what they do. You'd have a hard time getting similar strength output out of another mount without some surgical proceedure (hello essence) or a full on exoskeleton.

If your not going for actual strength and instead going for the extra hand value, pat your head, whistle and rub your belly. Kinda hard or takes practice doesn't it, then imagine doing actually complex tasks with such an arrangement.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I have to admit, though. A Doc Octopus style of exoskeleton, plugged into a Datajack (or several) would be truly awesome in a lot of ways.

[hobgoblin]

This sounds like the idea i have been tying with for a while, having a drone that could ride on the rigger/hacker and provide fire support without the owner knowing any weapon skills.

[Minimax le Rouge]

No arms no chocolate? Not anymore !

The Evo orderly is a kind of stuff used by people in that case.
You sit in the chair, you rig it, and you can move and use is arms at will.

you can imagine a drone, that would be "just an arm striped on my shoulder/torso". I imagine you can use it like any other drone, and having enough control to use it in the every day tasks : drink a glass of water, scratch your b... belly, or opening a door.
But it's not a cyberlimb, no hardpoint to keep it in the right place in case of big efforts. so no fighting, no climbing and so one.
If you want a hard pointed arm, use a exoskeleton or a big drone.

[Neraph]

I have to admit, though. A Doc Octopus style of exoskeleton, plugged into a Datajack (or several) would be truly awesome in a lot of ways.

The Sparrow with multiple full arms. Not only are you Doc Oc, you can fly also.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The Sparrow with multiple full arms. Not only are you Doc Oc, you can fly also.

The Sparrow is awful big though...

[Mardrax]

The Sparrow is awful big though...

It better be if it's going to carry that Body 12 troll around.