Help me keep my campiagn undercontrol! Options

[GM Lich]

So anyways going to run shadow run again its been a while since I've ran it. The plan at least so far is just to make it an alternative campaign to our regular GURPS: Mass Effect game. One thing we had problems with our previous shadowrun campaign was min maxing. We basically had characters who could do well in whatever field of specialization they were suppose to do. For example the face was rolling 20+ dice. This was in a 300 bp campaign too. It was silly. Basically all the runners could throw a bunch of dice around in combat or in their area of specialization but absolutely sucked when it came to do anything outside their area of specialization. Fast forward a bit that group eventually moved on to other systems and we drifted apart. So now I have a bunch of newbies to shadowrun (and rpgs in general) and one veteran (He played in the min max group.)
So I've been trying to avoid the min maxing nightmare. So I've implemented the following houserules:
core book only SRA, to avoid power creep, all other books are subject to gm's approval depending on what advantages/equipment they are taking
To encourage people to use skills, and be able to be prepare in a number of rather then attribute maxing, they now cost 1 point less per rating to buy in BP
To encourage people not to dump CHA (Besides the face), going to use free contacts = CHA attribute X 2
To prevent over equipment dependency, the total hits limited to skill's rating x2

Anyways just to keep it simple I will run Shadowrun Missions Season 2 (Denver). Right now my worry is the veteran, and people asking to use certain books. Any advice to avoid what was happening in the other group. Any advice running shadowrun missions denver, houserules, and advice would be nice. The two archetypes that seem both really good is that have potential to abuse is the Mage (summoning spirits) and Technomancer (Or should I say dronomancer).

[suoq]

I'm not arguing with you that it's a problem, but you need to be able to explain WHY it's a problem so that you can convince your players not to do it.

What you seem to be doing is making rules that encourage them to game the system in specific ways but that's not really dealing with the actual problem.

[Tanegar]

It seems to me that power creep isn't your problem as much as excessive optimization. What you want to do is reduce the pressure to optimize, with three simple rules:

1) No character can start with any skill or skill group higher than 3.
2) No character can start with any piece of gear whose Availability is higher than 8.
3) No character can start with any piece of gear whose Legality is F.

This will encourage your players to spread out a little more and create more rounded characters in terms of capability. You may also want to consider using Karmagen rather than BP, since it tends to favor generalists anyway.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

It seems to me that power creep isn't your problem as much as excessive optimization. What you want to do is reduce the pressure to optimize, with three simple rules:

1) No character can start with any skill or skill group higher than 3.
2) No character can start with any piece of gear whose Availability is higher than 8.
3) No character can start with any piece of gear whose Legality is F.

This will encourage your players to spread out a little more and create more rounded characters in terms of capability. You may also want to consider using Karmagen rather than BP, since it tends to favor generalists anyway.

I disagree with rules #2 and #3.
This totally prevents a Street Sam of getting a bone lacing for instance, or even a sneak character of buying nanopaste disguise.

[Summerstorm]

Just one rule for me:

1. Make a character which could exist in this world, and CAN be a shadowrunner.

It's that easy. If for example someone comes up with: I am the best sniper in the world, special forces shit blahblah: No problem, i say. But you better don't have him have strength, body and charisma on 1 and no athletics, dodge, unarmed, military knowledge and social skills and no hobbies.

Same thing for other characters. Being good, even among the best of the world isn't the problem. Not being a character is. This isn't a wargame. You do not consist of "Attack, Defense, HP, Special, Movepoints".

[UmaroVI]

It sounds like you want less specialized and more well-rounded characters. The way to promote that is Karmagen - see the Runner's Companion - but you may want to do karmagen on less karma than 750 (maybe like 550). Do note two changes in the German version you should use: metatypes cost karma=bp (so 20 karma to be an ork), attributes cost 5x new rating, not 3x new rating.

Tanegar's suggestions will get you Magicrun, because they shaft street samurai and hackers so hard and leave mages mildy weakened and technomancers barely weakened.

Alternatively, depending on your group, you might do better to set a universally high standard and simply run at 4,5, or even 6 Table Rating (with TR both setting challenges and also adding dice to opposed tests) to keep the challenge appropriate.

[Fatum]

It seems to me that power creep isn't your problem as much as excessive optimization. What you want to do is reduce the pressure to optimize, with three simple rules:

1) No character can start with any skill or skill group higher than 3.
2) No character can start with any piece of gear whose Availability is higher than 8.
3) No character can start with any piece of gear whose Legality is F.

This will encourage your players to spread out a little more and create more rounded characters in terms of capability. You may also want to consider using Karmagen rather than BP, since it tends to favor generalists anyway.

This will also give them unplayable characters who can lose a fight to a lame ghoul.

[HunterHerne]

This will also give them unplayable characters who can lose a fight to a lame ghoul.

I wouldn't say unplayable, but tactics, which are already important become more so. That said, the lowest I would restrict individual skill ratings is 4. Maximum of one at 5 is preferable, though (That said, most of my NPC's follow this, but my players are not forced to. I also employ basic tactics with everyone, which allowed a "lowly ganger" to actually hurt a Way of the Warrior Adept.

[Tanegar]

It sounds like you want less specialized and more well-rounded characters. The way to promote that is Karmagen - see the Runner's Companion - but you may want to do karmagen on less karma than 750 (maybe like 550). Do note two changes in the German version you should use: metatypes cost karma=bp (so 20 karma to be an ork), attributes cost 5x new rating, not 3x new rating.

Reducing the number of points available at chargen increases optimization pressure: you have to min-max even more just to be competent at your chosen specialty. If you want to reduce optimization pressure, you have to lower the bar for "competent." If a gunbunny can be playable at 12-15 dice rather than 16-20, he has more points to spend on secondary (and maybe tertiary) capabilities. Yes, this also entails lowering the overall level of opposition. Everything's a tradeoff.

[AppliedCheese]

Well, if you want to see them down scale in a hurry, make all mages/adepts "latent awakening" types.

Mixed with the Skill 4, Avail 12 , no contacts above connection 3, and 300 BPs (of which up to 200 may still be stats), that will give a you a "grow into being runners" campaign.

A 400 BP, RAW campaign assumes a seasoned running team. Who are, quite naturally, exceedingly good. They aren't dead yet after all.

[Traul]

It's that easy. If for example someone comes up with: I am the best sniper in the world, special forces shit blahblah: No problem, i say. But you better don't have him have strength, body and charisma on 1 and no athletics, dodge, unarmed, military knowledge and social skills and no hobbies.

The hobby part is easy:
I. Like. To. Kill. Things.

[Mardrax]

You can of course just limit dice pools. Say no one ever rolls more than 15 dice, barring extra Edge dice.

[Tanegar]

Hard caps on dice pools feel arbitrarily restrictive to me. A cap on starting skills lets you start with an overall lower power curve while still giving room to grow.

[Glyph]

Those house rules don't seem too restrictive, and are a good mix of carrot with just a bit of stick. The one thing I would change, though, is to be more specific about what things, from which books, you don't want in your game. Deciding it on a case by case basis might lead to charges of favoritism - best to be consistent.

Karmagen is really the best for "well-rounded" characters, in that it is very kind to generalists, and gives specialists just enough extra points that they don't wind up looking so lopsided. I would use the German errata (metatype BP cost in karma, Attributes bought with the x 5 multiplier), but I would use the full 750 points. If you truly feel the need to cap dice pools, it is better to do it by setting other limits, rather than restricting the overall points.

[Modular Man]

The hobby part is easy:
I. Like. To. Kill. Things.

Well, did you have to do this? Read the entire webcomic in a single rush now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Back on topic:
Do you really think your players will abuse the rules that much? Personally, I'd rather see what they're up to and then maybe correct things a little. I may sound naive, but you could put a little trust in them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Also, trying to keep player characters low might end up in having them even get higher. This is Shadowrun, not D&D, for example. People tend to start at a higher level and don't rise that fast after that. In my opinion, they're supposed to be good at what they do. If players see this the same way, they might get into min-maxing if they feel they're lacking points. What exactly do you want from this campaign? A gang-level campaign where the guys have to work themselves up? This will probably take a lot of time.

Also, basically what Summerstorm said above. I really second that.

[kzt]

Skills are seriously overpriced in SR. Nobody should be dumping points into skills until they are out of characteristics they can buy. The pool counts, not the skill.

And it's really hard to pass the "reality test" given SR character generation, and particularly the inane skill table

"My character was a navy seal sniper!"
"How come he doesn't have swimming, diving, parachuting, and demolitions at expert level?"
"Umm, because that uses up all my points, skill slots and doesn't let me do anything useful?"

You have to lower the standard the dice pool for what players think is an expert, cap the pool and use GM approval to force people to make characters that do what you want. But given that you have to keep the world scaled to match.

Limiting overall points doesn't really help like you think. You have to optimize MORE at low points, so you either get highly focused characters or mush that can't do anything. Karma gen helps. 600 point characters with caps using any system will be much better rounded than a 300 point character.

Frank Trollman's house rules are also a practical approach to look at.

[Ascalaphus]

Talk to your players. Talk to the old min/maxer in private first. Making rules without communicating about what you want to achieve is just a kind of passive-aggressive thing that leaves people bewildered and doesn't accomplish much.

Explain to them that you don't enjoy overspecialization.

Explain that each character should be able to do a lot of stuff alone; that includes having basic social, combat and stealth skills. To sneak away from the local cops being busybodies, to scare off the local gang trying to collect protection money, and to keep the insurance salespeople from talking you into selling your soul. Or stuff like that. Just get the point across that they shouldn't cut away everything except their specialization.

Make sure to challenge people on things that aren't their specialty. Put the Sam in social situations, put the Face against a drone that can't be pornomancered.



Also, use karmagen, because it's friendlier if you want to make a well-rounded specialist. Make clear the difficulty bar will be at a reasonable level, and that they can actually afford to be good-enough-to-be-cool at their specialty, without neglecting everything else.

[Seriously Mike]

And it's really hard to pass the "reality test" given SR character generation, and particularly the inane skill table

"My character was a navy seal sniper!"
"How come he doesn't have swimming, diving, parachuting, and demolitions at expert level?"
"Umm, because that uses up all my points, skill slots and doesn't let me do anything useful?"

Ah, here we go. I hit the same hurdle building my werewolf commando for WtF. In the end, guy ended up as an ordinary soldier-paratrooper, pretty well-rounded but with no fireworks. I focused on skills a soldier would reasonably have, so of course Firearms (at 2) with Rifle specialization, Medicine at 1 with First Aid spec, Survival at 2, Stealth at 2 with Camouflage spec, Athletics at 2, Craft at 2 (you know, weapon maintenance, parachute rigging etc.), the effect is that he still can kick ass (maybe he's not as good in it as the team's Big Guy), but is also useful in other situations (for example, it's amazing how often he has to use First Aid on the rest of the team). However, I prefer creating well-rounded characters as opposed to overspecialized ones.
Also, check out my Bodyguard Adept - he's pretty much the kind of character you would want in your campaign. No Attribute higher than 4, only two skills at 4, not much rare gear. Maybe the pools are lower than your average Dumpshock member would like (9 dice on melee attack, 8 on firearms), but he's prepared for a lot of different situations (he can fight, sneak, scout the Astral, has oodles of useful knowledge on magic and corporations).

[Cain]

Hard caps on dice pools feel arbitrarily restrictive to me. A cap on starting skills lets you start with an overall lower power curve while still giving room to grow.

Err... no. Actually, a cap on starting pools reduces optimization pressure, and encourages more rounding-out. How people hit the cap is up to them, but a cap of 15 for starting Missions is reasonable. One the min/maxers hit the cap, they'll naturally go for breadth; the non-optimizers will know how high they should shoot for, and will push a bit more to be better.

Capping skills does nothing for capping other bonuses, such as attributes and gear. And throwing a lot more arbitrary limits into it really messes with a game. A simple dice pool cap reduces the problems immensely, and requires less house rules.

[Irion]

It sounds like you want less specialized and more well-rounded characters. The way to promote that is Karmagen - see the Runner's Companion - but you may want to do karmagen on less karma than 750 (maybe like 550). Do note two changes in the German version you should use: metatypes cost karma=bp (so 20 karma to be an ork), attributes cost 5x new rating, not 3x new rating.

Tanegar's suggestions will get you Magicrun, because they shaft street samurai and hackers so hard and leave mages mildy weakened and technomancers barely weakened.

Alternatively, depending on your group, you might do better to set a universally high standard and simply run at 4,5, or even 6 Table Rating (with TR both setting challenges and also adding dice to opposed tests) to keep the challenge appropriate.

!!!This is the awnser you are looking for!!!
If you want well rounded chars, karmagen is the way to go.

You may then choose how "good" the characters should be:
500 dirty street level.
600 petty thief.
750 professional.

[suoq]

"My character was a navy seal sniper!"
"How come he doesn't have swimming, diving, parachuting, and demolitions at expert level?"

Because he's a Navy Seal. He's well trained and good at what he does, but being a navy seal does not require being an "expert" at swimming, diving, parachuting, and demolitions. It simply requires you to be good enough to get your part of the job done.

If you think being a Navy Seal means "expert", enjoy this season of Top Shot where the Navy Seal's performance is far below his talk.

If you want sane dice pools, suggest what you want for dice pools and cap them if the players can't take a hint.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Skills are seriously overpriced in SR. Nobody should be dumping points into skills until they are out of characteristics they can buy. The pool counts, not the skill.

And it's really hard to pass the "reality test" given SR character generation, and particularly the inane skill table

"My character was a navy seal sniper!"
"How come he doesn't have swimming, diving, parachuting, and demolitions at expert level?"
"Umm, because that uses up all my points, skill slots and doesn't let me do anything useful?"

Maybe they should set their sight on something a little less Elite then. The Skill Table works just fine. And, as Suoq indicated, a SEAL does not need Atrributes all at max, nor does he need skills above 3 at start.

[Ascalaphus]

I think on the one hand, the expectations of what an "Elite" dicepool looks like have been inflated. If you as GM say you consider 12-16 Elite, rather than 20-30, that leaves people some room to buy other stuff.

On the other hand, SR and some other RPGs claim that you could play stuff like a commando in them. Ex-Commando is a pretty archetypal character concept that should be doable in SR.

So by picking reasonable dice pool sizes for "competent" and "good" from the GM's size, and the player seeking balance between well-rounded and good at his niche, that ought to be possible.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think on the one hand, the expectations of what an "Elite" dicepool looks like have been inflated. If you as GM say you consider 12-16 Elite, rather than 20-30, that leaves people some room to buy other stuff.

On the other hand, SR and some other RPGs claim that you could play stuff like a commando in them. Ex-Commando is a pretty archetypal character concept that should be doable in SR.

So by picking reasonable dice pool sizes for "competent" and "good" from the GM's size, and the player seeking balance between well-rounded and good at his niche, that ought to be possible.

SR4 has already done the work for you, though. Look at the Archtypes and any NPC. Done.
Tir Ghost Elite throws ~15 Dice in Primary Abilities. That is Elite/Best of the Best Levels.

[Traul]

If you players overspecialize, it is also your role as the GM to make sure that all the skills are used. If you let the players pick their fights, then the specialists are better because they will always play to their strengths. It's your job to take them out of their comfort zone. The sammy has to fast-talk his way through a security check, the healer is down and someone else has to heal him, the mage in a background count, the remote hacker against a wired security network,... Don't blame your players for specializing if it works at your table. A character with 20+ dice in his one shtick is not a problem as long as you make sure that his shtick cannot be the answer to every situation he encounters.