Help me keep my campiagn undercontrol! Options

[Emeraldknite]

I have a player that likes to min/max like that. You know what? I let him. Because he digs his own grave that way.

He made this ex-spec warfare character that was an elf with dual machine pistols move by wire, smart link...You know what I'm getting at.

I asked, so you are a shadowrunner now? Response 'Yup'
Me: You do realize that you are specialized in one particular machine pistol. And you do realize that license or not carrying machine pistols aroud would garner Scrutiny from various authorities?"

Him: Yup

Me: So where are your social skills? Don't you negotiate with your johnson or do you take what ever he hands out?

Him: There are other people playing the game right? (The face always insisted on talking to the Johnson alone so that he could negotiate a stellar price for himself. And with this player's reluctance to get any skills but combat skills, the face always short changed him on his payment.)

So this player in the first game decided that he needed to be a hero in his neighborhood. 6 gangers harassing some people in his low rent hood. He decided to intimidate them with no skill and even worse, a 2 charisma to default to. Well the one die that he rolled ended up a 1 and the combat ensued. Gangers lost only 2 and the rest beat the living crap out of him into overflow. Good thing he had Doc Wagon platinum. They stole his gear especially his custom machine pistols that he painstakenly crafted with arsenal. Couldn't get him out of the formfitting body armor before doc wagon showed up.

The game was riddled with stuff like this from him. The rest of the players got a good laugh at his expense. But eventually he swallowed his pride and privately asked me for some design tips. Now atleast in my games he actually tries to make a decent thought out character.

I guess that I was a little long winded for what I wanted to say but sure let them make specialists like that. Just make sure that they each choose a different specialty for it to work right. I am sure that I read some where that there is an absolute dice pool limit and it was 20 after penalties and before edge. (I will try to confirm that). Because there are people that are specialists (Classic geek stereotype. Computer 6, Charisma 1, Social skills-Huh?)but specialists seek specialist to cover their other bases.

The above example is how I run my game. Between runs it is very slice of life. I encourage my players to experience the world around them. They meet people along the way that can help them and they know that they can score bonus karma doing it too. But they also know that they may need some skills to accomplish it too. So they try to make more rounded people. Even if it is just putting 1 into a skill. Atleast it gives them a chance.

P.S.: Oh yeah, remember that you are the GM and you always have more toys than the players to use. Don't be afraid to use them.

[Cain]

!!!This is the awnser you are looking for!!!
If you want well rounded chars, karmagen is the way to go.

Actually, it's been my experience that if you want horrendously overpowered, min/maxed, twiddled-to-death characters, karmagen is the way to go. It took me days to complete my last karmagen character. Longhand didn't help, and I was going without the German errata, but still: I ended up with a working mage with Spellcasting 6, Drain stat (Intuition) at 5+, and a Magic and Edge of 6+. Karmagen just means you have to work harder for greater rewards.

[EpicSpire]

the way i go about this in my games is as follows:

1) Karmagen: 750 (which is generous)
2) Availability is still 12
3) No "F" legality unless you have a contact that can reasonably get you that item.
4) Capping starting skills would be a good idea (one i didn't think about,.. but haven't needed to cause my players aren't Douches)

[HunterHerne]

I have a player that likes to min/max like that. You know what? I let him. Because he digs his own grave that way.

He made this ex-spec warfare character that was an elf with dual machine pistols move by wire, smart link...You know what I'm getting at.

I asked, so you are a shadowrunner now? Response 'Yup'
Me: You do realize that you are specialized in one particular machine pistol. And you do realize that license or not carrying machine pistols aroud would garner Scrutiny from various authorities?"

Him: Yup

Me: So where are your social skills? Don't you negotiate with your johnson or do you take what ever he hands out?

Him: There are other people playing the game right? (The face always insisted on talking to the Johnson alone so that he could negotiate a stellar price for himself. And with this player's reluctance to get any skills but combat skills, the face always short changed him on his payment.)

So this player in the first game decided that he needed to be a hero in his neighborhood. 6 gangers harassing some people in his low rent hood. He decided to intimidate them with no skill and even worse, a 2 charisma to default to. Well the one die that he rolled ended up a 1 and the combat ensued. Gangers lost only 2 and the rest beat the living crap out of him into overflow. Good thing he had Doc Wagon platinum. They stole his gear especially his custom machine pistols that he painstakenly crafted with arsenal. Couldn't get him out of the formfitting body armor before doc wagon showed up.

Wow. I can't believe he actually was able to throw a dice. By that description, he would be at a -6 penalty, using the Social modifiers table. The fact that he got his ass beaten would be awesome, though.

The game was riddled with stuff like this from him. The rest of the players got a good laugh at his expense. But eventually he swallowed his pride and privately asked me for some design tips. Now atleast in my games he actually tries to make a decent thought out character.

I guess that I was a little long winded for what I wanted to say but sure let them make specialists like that. Just make sure that they each choose a different specialty for it to work right. I am sure that I read some where that there is an absolute dice pool limit and it was 20 after penalties and before edge. (I will try to confirm that). Because there are people that are specialists (Classic geek stereotype. Computer 6, Charisma 1, Social skills-Huh?)but specialists seek specialist to cover their other bases.

The absolute dicepool max is an optional rule, one I don't use, but I also have never played with anyone that had 20+ dice in anything other then DR (and that was a troll metavariant). The current hacker gets close, as does the mage when she is able to bring her Spellcasting focus to bear (logic 2 and mostly sustained spells does not make for great flexibility from her).

The above example is how I run my game. Between runs it is very slice of life. I encourage my players to experience the world around them. They meet people along the way that can help them and they know that they can score bonus karma doing it too. But they also know that they may need some skills to accomplish it too. So they try to make more rounded people. Even if it is just putting 1 into a skill. Atleast it gives them a chance.

This I agree with completely. If I figure the campaign will last, I even start doing news articles they can take ideas from or look into themselves. I had one player go looking for a stray cat to take home as a pet, and rewarded him with an easy fight and a chance to get a few bucks on the side (Gabriel hound).

P.S.: Oh yeah, remember that you are the GM and you always have more toys than the players to use. Don't be afraid to use them.

Oh yes. Especially when they make sense. in my current evolving setting, the Bloods gang is getting more combative and defensive, and might gain other skills in time at low ratings, as two runner groups have cut into their profit activities. The first time, they were a bunch of ragtag idiots. The second, they had slightly better armour, forced ware from the head guy, and were doing cram. The results: Both times they rescued the person. The first time, the Head of the gang was sent to the hospital. The second time, the runner's almost didn't get away. (the phys ad took 10 boxes of physical before the fight was over, and the mage was inpained as well.)

[Cain]

The absolute dicepool max is an optional rule, one I don't use, but I also have never played with anyone that had 20+ dice in anything other then DR (and that was a troll metavariant). The current hacker gets close, as does the mage when she is able to bring her Spellcasting focus to bear (logic 2 and mostly sustained spells does not make for great flexibility from her).

I've never seen a SR4.5 game without at least someone with 20+ dice in their specialty, and usually more. Since I started capping the pools directly, I've had less of an issue. Skills are already capped anyway, so they're not that big of a deal.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I've never seen a SR4.5 game without at least someone with 20+ dice in their specialty, and usually more. Since I started capping the pools directly, I've had less of an issue. Skills are already capped anyway, so they're not that big of a deal.

No one at our table has 20+ Dice in any skill at all, let alone a Specialty. Nor have they for many, many years. So anecdotally, you know have. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[HunterHerne]

I've never seen a SR4.5 game without at least someone with 20+ dice in their specialty, and usually more. Since I started capping the pools directly, I've had less of an issue. Skills are already capped anyway, so they're not that big of a deal.

Well, no one at my table's generally soft caps many skills or attributes, even in the specialty. The phys ad at my table right now has insane reaction, though, but almost nothing in dodge or gymnastics

[Glyph]

Actually, it's been my experience that if you want horrendously overpowered, min/maxed, twiddled-to-death characters, karmagen is the way to go. It took me days to complete my last karmagen character. Longhand didn't help, and I was going without the German errata, but still: I ended up with a working mage with Spellcasting 6, Drain stat (Intuition) at 5+, and a Magic and Edge of 6+. Karmagen just means you have to work harder for greater rewards.

Karmagen before the German errata was definitely not balanced at all compared to build points. It created very powerful characters. On the flip side, there was a lot less pressure to min-max just to be effective, and you could create quirky characters that wouldn't be practical under a less generous character creation system. Definitely not the system to use if your player is a munchkin, though.

The German errata version is more balanced, although it still usually creates more powerful characters than what you could get with 400 build points.


On the subject of high dice pools - they don't always have to be accompanied by glaring weaknesses or lopsided character capabilities. I have found that usually those symptoms are more likely to happen with newer players. A better-designed character can easily have 20 dice to shoot things, and still be fine at sneaking, social skills, etc.

[HunterHerne]

On the subject of high dice pools - they don't always have to be accompanied by glaring weaknesses or lopsided character capabilities. I have found that usually those symptoms are more likely to happen with newer players. A better-designed character can easily have 20 dice to shoot things, and still be fine at sneaking, social skills, etc.

This might be true, but most characters have those weaknesses somewhere. I generally make it so that most characters need a few ranks in a few general use skills/B&E skills in order to be really workable. Anyone who is at a meet, or any social encounter, needs a few ranks in certain skills, or a decent charisma, in order to not completely screw things, even if they don't talk. Perception is defenitely useful, we all know, and recently a Mage PC found out just how useful, by dropping the other PC in front of some gangers who blew the entire mission by firing one shot, resulting in both PC's getting shot, multiple times, and one almost getting beat to death. After an incredible DR test to resist 7 boxes (he had 8 dice, and no edge left before the test), he had 10 of 10 boxes filled as a result of the screw up. Yes, he managed to get away, barely.

[Irion]

@Glyph
Yes, you may need to tweak it bit. Reintroduce the free knowledge Points (log+Int)*6 Karma.
Reduce the amount of karma from 750 to 650 and you get out about the powerlevel of BP.
@HunterHerne
Going about it like that with the BP-system creates a fucked up character. You just need to look at him.

Lets talk about a mage.
You need the drain stats at least 5/5, 7/5 if we are talking abount an elf.
Now lets take a look at the skills.
Well, you need spellcasting, counterspelling and summoning. Binding is strongly suggested.
It stands to reason, if it is a good choice to just take the skillgroups up to 4.
Now, it is mostly a good Idea to open a second line of ability.
The biotech group is kind of mighty for a logic tradition or the influance group for a charisma based tradition.
Now, all you need to add is perception 4 and assensing 4.
(And naturally soft maxes attributes.)
If you have some space left, it might be an idea to think about a powerfocus force 4.

All those little skills, won't help.
Whats good about two dice for running or maybe 4 dices for intimidation/first aid/persuation? You won't get anywhere with those.

[Udoshi]

Actually, it's been my experience that if you want horrendously overpowered, min/maxed, twiddled-to-death characters, karmagen is the way to go. It took me days to complete my last karmagen character. Longhand didn't help, and I was going without the German errata, but still: I ended up with a working mage with Spellcasting 6, Drain stat (Intuition) at 5+, and a Magic and Edge of 6+. Karmagen just means you have to work harder for greater rewards.

Well there is your problem. Emphasis hella mine.

Without the german errata, karmagen is basically
HEY! You! You should use karmagen, because your attributes cost half of what they do in BP
Your skills cost half too!
Even the specializations!
Sure, skill groups cost about same, but you have twice the points!
Oh yeah and your metatype is free!
And maxing out an attribute doesn't cost an arm and a leg extra!
Now you have epic shittons of extra points to cover the basics AND min max!

I can pretty much guarantee you that if you applied the same effective changed that karmagen brings to BP gen, you would end up with an even worse monster than Broken Edition karmagen creates. Seriously. Free metatype, half off stats(i think its .6 of what it should be in RAW karma, actually), and no hardcap penalty alone would free up at least a hundred points for most characters in BP.

Remember that thread where dumpshock made characters in BP, and converted them to karmagen, determining what it would have cost under that system in an attempt to compare them? I think the highest was a super-body 400bp minotaur, coming out to around 1400-1500 karma.

The problem with unerrata'd karmagen is that while karmagen DOES make higher rated things proportionally more expensive ..... you have enough points saved on attributes that it really doesn't matter.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Lets talk about a mage.
You need the drain stats at least 5/5, 7/5 if we are talking abount an elf.

Why?

Now lets take a look at the skills.
Well, you need spellcasting, counterspelling and summoning. Binding is strongly suggested.
It stands to reason, if it is a good choice to just take the skillgroups up to 4.
Now, it is mostly a good Idea to open a second line of ability.
The biotech group is kind of mighty for a logic tradition or the influance group for a charisma based tradition.
Now, all you need to add is perception 4 and assensing 4.

Not bad, but not absolutely necessary either. 3's in some of those skills (maybe even a couple of 2's) will still make a viable character for the world as presented in the book.

(And naturally soft maxes attributes.)

Again, Why?

If you have some space left, it might be an idea to think about a powerfocus force 4.

Absolutely unnecessary

All those little skills, won't help.
Whats good about two dice for running or maybe 4 dices for intimidation/first aid/persuation? You won't get anywhere with those.

I disagree. You are assuming that the relevant stats are minimized. I do not make that assumption. A Couple of skills at 2, and some stats at 3 gives 5 Dice. Bonuses can acrue from there for ware, equipment, spells, or whatever.

[Glyph]

This might be true, but most characters have those weaknesses somewhere. I generally make it so that most characters need a few ranks in a few general use skills/B&E skills in order to be really workable.

Any character can, and should, have some weaknesses.

My overall philosophy when designing a character is that he gets hired by being really good at something, but he also needs to be someone who has plausibly functioned in the game world long enough to get that reputation. Some skills are nearly essential for any character, such as etiquette and perception. And there are a lot of others that are very useful to have, such as infiltration and computer (which essentially covers the operation of nearly any electronic device). But I assign weight to both goals. If my sniper is mediocre to average at sniping, I have failed. If my sniper can't sneak up on someone, spot an ambush, or use pistols or his fists when he isn't sniping - then I have also failed.

[UmaroVI]

The reason karmagen encourages more balanced characters is that it rewards you more for being less specialized. For example, in BP-gen, an elf face who goes from 7 to 6 charisma only frees up 10 bp - enough to buy a single skill group at 1 or 2.5 skills at 1 for more versatility - and they get punished for it later, because buying that Charisma with karma costs 35 karma, but buying the skill group later at 1 costs only 10 karma.

In karmagen, on the other hand, the face frees up a full 35 points by starting with 1 less charisma, and that's enough to actually pick up some serious versatility - he could go from not knowing how to fight at all to being passable in a firefight, for example.

[HunterHerne]

@HunterHerne
Going about it like that with the BP-system creates a fucked up character. You just need to look at him.

Lets talk about a mage.
You need the drain stats at least 5/5, 7/5 if we are talking abount an elf.
Now lets take a look at the skills.
Well, you need spellcasting, counterspelling and summoning. Binding is strongly suggested.
It stands to reason, if it is a good choice to just take the skillgroups up to 4.
Now, it is mostly a good Idea to open a second line of ability.
The biotech group is kind of mighty for a logic tradition or the influance group for a charisma based tradition.
Now, all you need to add is perception 4 and assensing 4.
(And naturally soft maxes attributes.)
If you have some space left, it might be an idea to think about a powerfocus force 4.

All those little skills, won't help.
Whats good about two dice for running or maybe 4 dices for intimidation/first aid/persuation? You won't get anywhere with those.

She does have her Charisma tradition, Cha 5 Will 5. She maxed her magic and spellcasting. No summoning, instead went with some combat skills (unarmed, Blades, firearms group). Assensing 3, no perception. Low counterspell. Dodge. some Athletics group. No Influence group, or other charisma skills. Power focus 4. 3 sus foci, spellcasting (combat) focus 5. Nartaki (for some gods awful reason she wanted 6 arms to wield Nodachis). Decent physical stats (3 and 4)'s. Int and Logic 2. I don't agree with it, because she made some awful oversights as far as fitting in to the world, but it's better then the twinking you are trying trying to do (kind of).

As for intimidation, I have a long standing NPC who is all full of persuasion, and had her and the Phys ad shaking in their boots before the fight began, and it got worse from there. First aid, would come in useful, since she was at 5 boxes and the phys ad was at 10 by the time the fight finished, with them on the losing side. Persuasion, possibly could have averted the fight to start with.

[suoq]

Any character can, and should, have some weaknesses.

I disagree. Simply building a character to not have weaknesses is a fine way to build a shadowrunner. Such a character can accompany/assist other runner's on many tasks, being a backup and not being bored without ever stealing the show.

http://fairlygoodpractices.com/shadowrun/generic.htm is my current Generic 400 BP non-mage. The goals were to not have weaknesses (other than not being a mage) and to have no disadvantages. My plan is to create a few archtypes along those lines (Missions Legal, 400 BP, No disadvantages), but I wanted to make a character new players could use with very little instruction and participate in whatever the mission had to offer. To get them to be able to participate as much as possible, even if it;s only assisting another player, the lack of weaknesses is pretty much a necessity.

[Glyph]

Characters have weaknesses because character creation uses a finite number of points. You can minimize your weaknesses, but you will have them, by omission if nothing else. Specialists will function less well outside of their specialty. Generalists will not be as good as a specialist, in whatever they are doing.

[Cain]

No character can be great at everything. So, in relation to the other characters, someone will always have weaknesses. Shadowrun is a team game, however, and so having enough to cover your own butt is all you need: you can not, and should not, try to outface the Face, or out-tech the Decker. Instead, have enough to function in those areas, and rely on technology or friends (or both) for when you need more. For example, you can use an agent to handle your Matrix stuff, and emotoys to help with social tests.

The only weakness you can't cover is magic: if you're not a mage, there's only so much you can do to help against magic. That's why you always need a mage on your team, to cover that area. But otherwise, unless you completely dumpstat Will, you won't be any worse off against magic in relation to the mundanes, and weaker in relation to someone with Counterspelling and spirits with magical Guard.

[GM Lich]

Thanks for all who replied! So it seems according to you guys the best way to avoid min maxing is to do the karma based gen using the german base errata I will look into that. I like what some of the posters posted about realistic backgrounds. To do this I should probably have them read the intro to shadowrun. Since I'm the only guy with the book at the moment (aside from the veteran who has purchased all the e-books). I'll try to have them read the intro chapter. Is there anywhere only that describes the shadowrun setting in character posted online? Otherwise not everyone will probably get a chance to read the intro to help them develop a story. I've also noticed low point characters just encourages overspecialization. Just as a clarification I dont mind characters throwing huge dice pools around but I hate it because often characters that do that often are the characters like Emeraldknite described.

[Critias]

Communication > Character Creation Rules.

When in doubt, talk to your players and chat with them while they're working on their characters. Give 'em an idea of what your concerns are, and keep up a conversation while they're giving themselves their gear and stuff. It'll all work out.

[CanRay]

When all else fails, always remember: Squirt Bottle and Rolled-up Newspaper. The Sunday Edition if they're really bad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Paul]

Any character can, and should, have some weaknesses.

And sometimes as a Game Master you may have to have a out of game, private conversation with a player to remind them of this. I've had the "dude stop being an obnoxious dick" conversation a few times, and sometimes dude doesn't realize he's even doing it. People underestimate how important communication can be between a GM and the players can be.

[Tanegar]

Err... no. Actually, a cap on starting pools reduces optimization pressure, and encourages more rounding-out. How people hit the cap is up to them, but a cap of 15 for starting Missions is reasonable. One the min/maxers hit the cap, they'll naturally go for breadth; the non-optimizers will know how high they should shoot for, and will push a bit more to be better.

Capping skills does nothing for capping other bonuses, such as attributes and gear. And throwing a lot more arbitrary limits into it really messes with a game. A simple dice pool cap reduces the problems immensely, and requires less house rules.

The problem I have with a global dice-pool cap is that it's false simplicity, because not all dice are created equal. 15 dice in Automotive Mechanic is nigh-unbeatable. You might be able to get a few more, but it's going to be difficult and expensive. 15 dice in a combat skill is decent, but not stellar. It's about the minimum expected of a combat-focused character. 15 dice in First Aid is merely adequate. It'll get you five hits with a reasonable degree of reliability, of which you lose two to the threshold, and Deus help you if you roll poorly. Sure, that global cap is simple up front, but you end up with a lot more work on the back end to normalize everybody to roughly equal levels of effectiveness.

[Fatum]

Okay, let's start from the very beginning.
A shadowrunner party (or rather troupe, I'd say, minding the typical quality setups) has need for a wide arrange of skillsets, and all of those on high level - at least high enough to be able to overcome a competent opposition. Since no character can possibly have all of those skillsets at 400BP, characters specialize, and that creates the necessity for forming the troupe. That's the very basic mechanic that the rest of the gameplay is built upon (and it's also a very good reason for PCs not to shoot each other).
Now, by putting limits on how much your PCs might specialize, you simultaneously lower their ability as a troupe, and the necessity to stay one, as well. Both of those, I see no good reason to do.
Yes, that means, most challenges your runners can overcome. That is by design. The trick is having the right specialist at the right place in the right time - which is what shadowrun troupe tactics is all about.
tl;dr: don't limit your characters' options, put them into situations that'd require either smart planning or using the skills they're not good at, or just make using their good skills feel rewarding and fun.

[suoq]

by putting limits on how much your PCs might specialize, you simultaneously lower their ability as a troupe

In my experience, this isn't true. If the players have less dice in their primary skillsets but more dice in their secondary skillsets or more secondary skillsets, then the rules on assisting allow for the same effective dice pools.

My experience is "Specialists operate as individuals, either doing tasks solo or doing nothing. Generalists operate as teams, assisting and handing tasks off to each other."

Without the assist rules, yes, specialists have a large advantage over generalists.