[X] My Assistant

[UmaroVI]

You only take Biofeedback from drone damage while jumped in; a command rigger is totally safe.

[Mardrax]

A Command rigger, will however not benefit from hotsimming at all, since his Command doesn't get the +2, just the rolls he's making with it.

[UmaroVI]

Right...but getting +2 to the rolls you are making with it is a benefit. I'm not sure what your point is. When do you care about the difference between having an 8 command, and having a 6 command but getting +2 to all the rolls you make with Command?

[Mardrax]

Ah, you are right, of course. I was somehow thinking it was the drone making the tests when Commanding. Mea culpa.

[Udoshi]

Your odds with Lightning Bolt are 53% if they don't dodge, 34% if they do. Versus 21% with powerbolt, and they don't need to dodge to get that. I'll take my entire 1 point more drain in order to nearly triple my chances of the spell working.

Fair enough, and that's entirely your call to make, but it is two drain. (f/2+3 vs f/2+1). Out of curiosity, what force do you plan on casting your lightning bolt at when you need to break it out?

I'm not really familiar with the rules for rigging, and AFB right now, but wasn't there something about riggers suffering damage when their rigged drones do? Which would be physical if they're hotsimming? See how that Lightning Bolt or Wreck Drone tastes, in all BTL goodness.

Plus the illegality of hotsimming, of course, which won't stop a AAA from doing it in the comfort of the laws they create by extraterritoriality, but will definitely stop most smaller company's riggers.

I'd always liked to think that the legality of it is why the implanted sim module exists, for the more oldschool hackers who use a datajack and an external commlink to do their hacking - having an implanted sim unit means they can pick up any off the shelf commlink and have hotsim capabilities with it(handy if you like burning links after using), and nobody can check if its -actually- a hot sim unit without opening you up.

As for the rigging biofeed back, its basically a joke. It only applies while jumped in, and only in hot sim, and its always stun damage. Such a rigger takes half the damage a drone does, but gets to soak it with willpower+biofeedback filter.
Yes, this means the potential incoming damage is reduced by the defense test, then by the armor, and then soaked again. A trauma damper and a good biofeedback filter means that a good rigger basically doesn't care about it at all.
Though if your drone bites it, dumpshock can still potentially get you, but I think that's an issue for anyone in VR in a drone node, not just jumped in riggers.

[Irion]

@Udoshi

As for the rigging biofeed back, its basically a joke. It only applies while jumped in, and only in hot sim, and its always stun damage. Such a rigger takes half the damage a drone does, but gets to soak it with willpower+biofeedback filter.
Yes, this means the potential incoming damage is reduced by the defense test, then by the armor, and then soaked again. A trauma damper and a good biofeedback filter means that a good rigger basically doesn't care about it at all.

Well, it depends. Yes, many little stings of needles won't hurt you.
But a force 12 Powerbolt frying your drone one shot, will give a hell of a kick and additional dumshock.
Without pain editor, you are probably "out of order".

What you say is perfectly true for "drone hits drone and soaks most of the damage". But honestly, due to how drone armor works, thats not quite the common way...
(There it goes mostly: Hit->no damage or Hit->Kaplam.)

[Mardrax]

I'd always liked to think that the legality of it is why the implanted sim module exists, for the more oldschool hackers who use a datajack and an external commlink to do their hacking - having an implanted sim unit means they can pick up any off the shelf commlink and have hotsim capabilities with it(handy if you like burning links after using), and nobody can check if its -actually- a hot sim unit without opening you up.

Having a comlink implanted means it's tough to access when you want to upgrade it, and we all know IT folks like to tinker with their toys.
Having a hotsimmed comlink implanted means you need to find a cyberdoc who's unscrupulous enough to implant 'ware he knows might well be lethal, on top of being terribly addicting, on top of being illegal. For a shadowrunner, this isn't all that hard. For a common wageslave spider though... After all, an actual registered surgeon could stand losing his license, on top of criminal prosecution when it gets out.

Also, when you work for a company, you can count on them doing a background check on you and your 'ware. Especially if you intend to run company business on said 'ware.

Even for a AAA, there's plenty reason to not have their spiders hotsimming. It's a question that equates "do our guards use smartlinks, or will they never go down for more than a few seconds, and never suffer any actual harm?"

[Udoshi]

Having a comlink implanted means

Oh, No, no, not a commlink.

A cyberware/headware hot sim module. Like, the seperate item on the table of headware that nobody bothers to look at? Yeah. THAT ONE. That is very specifically a seperate entry from a commlink.

The idea being that you connect your Datajack/Sim unit to an external commlink. Because the hotness of the signal is not dependent on the commlink at all.

"Oh yes, officer, my implanted sim module is -absolutely- legally cold sim, what are you going to do, open me up and take a peek at its innards?"
and also the best of both worlds for NOT having to get surgery when you want to modify your external commlink.

See what I'm saying?

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Since the discussion has moved away from Free Spirits and into rigger specifics, I might as well use this thread to ask a different question about free spirits:

Could it by any chance be, that they actually completely suck? At least when you use PC-gen rules? I'm trying to build an NPC karmagen legal free spirit as opposition for my runners, and basically... I need to give it about 1000 karma (on OLD karmagen costs) for it to be even close to the numbers of a normal PC-level character, let alone extra competent to face the PCs on its own, without backup. Even a regular F6 spirit has WAY better numbers. The only thing to do seems to be to initiate it and buy it to about F9, which won't actually make it that much stronger, but will just make sure it's largely invulnerable, except to mages and other spirits.

And the rules are also a mess, or so it seems. Do I actually get a point of edge each time I initiate? The rules seem to say that the spirit gets one INDIVIDUAL critter power each time it initiates, and RC doesn't actually revoke that, or am I reading it wrong?

I know I should just take any normal spirit and make it free, but... I don't like an inconsistent game world. Either PC spirits have to use the NPC rules, or the other way around.

[Mardrax]

Spirits don't excel in throwing huge numbers around. They excel at mobility and utility. Being able to use critter powers, a free Magician quality, and to just whisk off to the astral, to take metaplanar shortcuts. All that is what you're paying out of the nose for. If you try to outclass a street sam with them, however, you'll end up looking bad.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Spirits don't excel in throwing huge numbers around. They excel at mobility and utility. Being able to use critter powers, a free Magician quality, and to just whisk off to the astral, to take metaplanar shortcuts. All that is what you're paying out of the nose for. If you try to outclass a street sam with them, however, you'll end up looking bad.

Hmm, so I would have to design him more like a master-mind, rather than a boss fight. Hmm... I was hoping to manage to get by without too many "minions", so that the fight doesn't get drawn out too long.

Well... so what defensive angles do I have to look out for?
Vs gunfire is taken care of with ITNW
vs. spells I have to trust WP+Counterspelling
vs spirits is a problem, because he can't match even a normal spirit's melee numbers. I would have to make sure that they don't get close, or stunbolt them right after materializing/entering astral space.

In any case powerful concealment + Influence can make this fight hard to even start, and as I understand it he would need two complex actions to completely teleport away to any place he's been before.

[Mardrax]

Two complex actions he could spend hiding under a box in the astral.

You just need to reconsider the way you approach a bossfight. The surprise of being able to jump out and attack someone is quite a hefty advantage, even without Engulf cheese. Concealment goes a long way toward going unnoticed, as does terrain control. Turn down the lights, then fill the building up with thermal smoke, pop Concealment and fly behind something to hide. Use Clairvoyance to watch the mage look around in the astral and give up, then come back in to harass someone again.

And their Concealing spirit can be stunbolted (did they ask it to Conceal itself as well? I doubt it.) while Influence is not mind control. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

No, I meant hard to start for the PCs (who will likely take the initiative of ambushing/attacking him), because he could be concealed, and even if not, might get to use Influence on the PCs.

This spirit is supposed to be a trickster/impersonator, who has taken control of a drug ring and is impersonating a KE exec at the same time, effectively stopping all successful law-enforcement against the syndicate. He needs (possibly dominated) aides who use matrix devices for him, but other than that, mostly works via normal face-stuff + influence, while materialized with aura masking and realistic form. The PCs might not even know he's a spirit before they attack him.

[Udoshi]

I know I should just take any normal spirit and make it free, but... I don't like an inconsistent game world. Either PC spirits have to use the NPC rules, or the other way around.

NPC and PC free spirits are NOT THE SAME, citizen. So says friend computer.

If you're making an opposition NPC that happens to also free spirit, don't even bother with the runner's companion spirit PC rules.

NPC free spirits are just better and less hastle in every way. Not dealing with Power Points is one, as is not having people argue over whether they really do use Force for all attributes, like every other spirit in the game. They also get bonuses to physical stats while Manifested, depending on their spirit type, which is a bonus that player free spirits lose out on. Guaranteed Spirit Skills are another big one(unarmed, dodge, perception, assensing, you know), because they automatically get some skills at Force, while PC-rule free spirits just get screwed.

So! Fuck your 1000 karma prime runner PC-ruled free spirit, and just use the NPC free spirit rules in Street Magic. You will thank me later.


Another thing that helps make spirits a lot better is allowing Martial Arts for spirits - in a game I'm in, we had a Shinto tradition beast/guardian free spirit player, who used the Natural Weapon power(looks like a sword, but actaully uses unarmed combat) and Kick Attack(unarmed combat gets +1 reach) to represent actually having a sword that is, literally, part of the spirit. It requires working with a gm, but spirit martial arts goes a long way to making them more viable without just focusing on getting your ItnW as high as possible.

If you're interested in using your trickster spirit as, well, a trickster there's another good trick to be aware of: Free Spirit are also Magicians, and Magicians can Manifest from the astral.
Yes, i know its a word beginning with M that sounds very similiar to Materialization, but they're actually rather different.
More importantly, a Manifesting magician can peek their head into the physical plane without being very vulnerable to getting it bitten off - just like manifested mages can't Project, Manifest, and Stunball everyone willy nilly with impunity, the protection is a two way street. While manifesting you can't be shot, and you enjoy the other benefits, like not showing up on technological recordings.
Basically, a spirit Magician has what amounts to a Ghost Mode option(quasi, insubstantial appearance, can't really be harmed by non-dual natured things) at their fingertypes.
So use it! its great for freaking people out. Also worth noting: Possession and inhabitation spirits have access to this trick.

Source: Anniversary edition 186:
Astral spirits can also manifest in the same manner as projecting magicians (p. 192), and many of them prefer this to materialization if they need to interact with a physical person."

Another good house rule you should consider for said free spirit is to treat the Influence spell and critter power like Control Emotions/Control Thoughts for purposes of the Social Modifiers Table(4a 130) - this lets a free spirit face actually have supernatural charisma, and pull off the 'devil in a suit' vibe, instead of just using Influence to order/suggest people around.

[Ramaloke]

What I plan to use the free spirit for is the "pact maker". Get a bunch of spirit pacts and high social and start making deals.

[Ramaloke]

*Double Post*

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

NPC and PC free spirits are NOT THE SAME, citizen. So says friend computer.

If you're making an opposition NPC that happens to also free spirit, don't even bother with the runner's companion spirit PC rules.

NPC free spirits are just better and less hastle in every way. Not dealing with Power Points is one, as is not having people argue over whether they really do use Force for all attributes, like every other spirit in the game. They also get bonuses to physical stats while Manifested, depending on their spirit type, which is a bonus that player free spirits lose out on. Guaranteed Spirit Skills are another big one(unarmed, dodge, perception, assensing, you know), because they automatically get some skills at Force, while PC-rule free spirits just get screwed.

So! Fuck your 1000 karma prime runner PC-ruled free spirit, and just use the NPC free spirit rules in Street Magic. You will thank me later.

No, I won't, because now my game world breaks down. Everyone using basically the same rules is a staple of gaming that I won't just give up on because the book says so. Why are there real free spirits (NPCs) and lesser ones (PCs) in the same world?

Another good house rule you should consider for said free spirit is to treat the Influence spell and critter power like Control Emotions/Control Thoughts for purposes of the Social Modifiers Table(4a 130) - this lets a free spirit face actually have supernatural charisma, and pull off the 'devil in a suit' vibe, instead of just using Influence to order/suggest people around.

I'll look into that.

[Mardrax]

No, I won't, because now my game world breaks down. Everyone using basically the same rules is a staple of gaming that I won't just give up on because the book says so. Why are there real free spirits (NPCs) and lesser ones (PCs) in the same world?

In the end though, does anyone really care more about how much karma an NPC is worth, than about how much that null zone facility took to construct? In the end, what matters is balance. And really karma costs are balanced for PCs. For NPCs, the relative value of things may differ wildly, and things that are extremely valuable for PCs are fairly worthless for NPCs, and the other way around.
Being able to stunbolt someone quite comfortably Concealed and Invisible from 20,000 foot up in the air, for example, is a massive advantage for a PC, but will far and wide be considered nothing but a dick move if the GM uses said capability. Replace with Stunball for a 'rocks fall, everyone dies.'

In any case, it's not like you can treat karma as a pseudo-Challenge Rating anyway. Loading up on 1000 karma worth of knowledge skills won't make you any tougher.

[Udoshi]

No, I won't, because now my game world breaks down. Everyone using basically the same rules is a staple of gaming that I won't just give up on because the book says so. Why are there real free spirits (NPCs) and lesser ones (PCs) in the same world?

I'll look into that.

Balance reasons, plain and simple.

Spirits came first. And then an attempt was made to dumb it down and give it a reasonable cost for players.

If you read the rules for PC free spirits, its also pretty obvious that there was a developer war going on, with people infighting over whether or not spirits should be able to use commlinks - you'll notice that they're specifically prohibited for using AR and 'electronic projections', for some reason, when even some basic spirits have eyes(low light vision, some therms, others with realistic form) - and a strict interpretation of the poor wording means spirits can't whip out their phone to check the time, which I'm fairly sure contradicts things that have happened(Buttercup has a comm, right?). Which means someone writing the book was like 'OH NO! we can't have spirits on the matrix ever, at all! Quick, write in poorly worded restrictions!'
Even more people seem to think that you should pay 250 BP for your race, and then buy attributes independently of that, despite all spirits using Force for all stats(seriously, this issue comes up every time someone mentions playing a free spirit on dumpshock). Or taking away the improved physical stats while manifested(wait, we are giving free fire spirits 4 free agility? NERF! NERF!')
I believe in one of the previous unofficial errata threats, one of the devs commented that free spirits were supposed to be a lot less expensive, too.

The point is, PC free spirit rules are bad, and you shouldn't use them if you can avoid it.