[X] My Assistant

[Mardrax]

The same player builds a combat monster, then is complaining combat is boring because it is too easy, but as soon as a non-combat scenario that his character isn't built for crops up, he flat out says "Well, this is no good, i can 't do anything, i'm going to play a computer game".

This is why I always warn people who seem to be intending to create a combat-heavy character, that combat is a fairly niche factor in Shadowrun, and probably not near as omnipresent as they're used to, and that unless they take up some auxilliary skillset, they're likely to be unable to do much of anything most of the time.

How to engage someone like that? Explain this to him when he complains. And have him experience it, while seeing others having fun with what are probably also auxilliary skillsets, and hopefully pick up a few points in something non-combat as realisation dawns.

[NumptyScrub]

It sounds like you're trying to run a gritty "your character is risking death" campaign with people who will go find something else to do if their character gets killed/captured.

Suggestions:
1) Consider Docwagon Platinum as a way to kill characters without consequence.
2) Consider giving up on the grit/risk and accept that your players don't want consequence.

As the player in charge of Caine in this campaign, I fully endorse the DM getting serious with the players and introducing them to the consequences of their actions. I have on occasion attempted to get the point across that we are not stereotypical good guys in SR, however as veteran DnD players we can get stuck in the good guy mindset and assume that killing bad guys is the point, rather than actually finishing the run (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Hyphz, you need to remember that we have had chars killed in every game (and game system) we've played in, and splattering someone's brain across 2 different streets just means they roll up a new one, in addition to the object lesson that SR is hardcore. This is not a biggie, especially if the survivors get to loot the kit from their corpse (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Also now that we have a better understanding of how the system works, we can probably minmax more effectively. I know I'm considering a rebuild of Caine now that I've found a million shortcomings of not having the hardware skill, or Exploit on my commlink, or enough strength to actually climb up my grapple rope unaided. I'm pretty sure the other players would take advantage of a messy death the same way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Mayhem_2006]

How to engage someone like that? Explain this to him when he complains. And have him experience it, while seeing others having fun with what are probably also auxilliary skillsets, and hopefully pick up a few points in something non-combat as realisation dawns.

The problem is that as already noted as soon as this happens he just stops playign entirely :/

[Mardrax]

or enough strength to actually climb up my grapple rope unaided.

Why would you ever climb unaided when Gecko Tape Gloves are cheap and readily available?

Also, welcome to Dumpshock! Where you will find all of the adventures you've had so far! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Seriously Mike]

Is that what that represents? Damn I'd been assuming it was a generic penalty for shooting from behind cover, where it represented the relative difficulties of shooting while hugging the cover, bits of broken glass in the way of the sight picture, limited angles you can traverse the weapon before your own cover blocks you, etc.

"Quickly move from behind cover to shoot" is clear enough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And if someone decides to delay his action until you shoot from cover, he still has -4 dice. Still better than blind-firing, though.

[HunterHerne]

"Quickly move from behind cover to shoot" is clear enough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And if someone decides to delay his action until you shoot from cover, he still has -4 dice. Still better than blind-firing, though.

Why would he have -4 dice? If the shooting character has good cover, he get's a +4 dice pool modifier to his defence pool. (SR4A 160)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Why would he have -4 dice? If te shooting character has good cover, he get's a +4 dice pool modifier to his defence pool. (SR4A 160)

Exactly...

[Wiseman]

As the player in charge of Caine in this campaign, I fully endorse the DM getting serious with the players and introducing them to the consequences of their actions. I have on occasion attempted to get the point across that we are not stereotypical good guys in SR, however as veteran DnD players we can get stuck in the good guy mindset and assume that killing bad guys is the point, rather than actually finishing the run (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Well welcome to the board and thank you for chiming in here. It really sounds like you guys just need to have a come to Jesus meeting and get on with the fun.

Being this was a first attempt at SR, might not be a bad idea for the GM to let them tweak characters (or rebuild) with the understanding he would also be "tweaking" things, muahahahahahaha...ha..aha.

But on a side note, it probably shouldn't be a metagame mentality of please kill my guy so I can just build another one and who cares. After all, it's a role playing game and not about just a bunch of numbers written somewhere. Some of the worst-built underpowered PC's (and NPC's) turn out the most FUN to play, because of non-mechanics reasons.

You're playing a representation of a living being, and unless they're suicidal (still fun) i'm pretty sure they should care if they die.

Now let's see lucky session seven!

[AppliedCheese]

Ranged combat mods table: target in partial cover, -2, good cover -4, blind fire -6. Which makes sense, so you can't just say "full auto wide, now your cover doesn't count."

[HunterHerne]

Ranged combat mods table: target in partial cover, -2, good cover -4, blind fire -6. Which makes sense, so you can't just say "full auto wide, now your cover doesn't count."

That's in the SR4 book. SR4A updated to make the cover as boni to the defender, and blind fire may apply in addition to good cover if 100% is hidden from view.

Also, I disagree with your assessment of full auto. It should be able to negate the full defence pool bonus, but they do still get the barrier armour rating to the Damage Resistance test. In this case, the Full auto weapon would be doing ~6-10 damage. Most likely stun, with the worn armour+ barrier armour, and reduced accordingly. That works for me just fine.

Note: It may be possible to completely ignore one of those armour ratings with insane AP modifiers, but most likely not all. That is still fine with me, as the PC would be wasting a good price of ammo to do the effect they want.

[NumptyScrub]

Why would you ever climb unaided when Gecko Tape Gloves are cheap and readily available?

Also, welcome to Dumpshock! Where you will find all of the adventures you've had so far! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Caine's STR 1 and 0 climb means a climbing pool of 0. Unless gecko tape gloves give you a dice pool bonus they probably won't do him much good either.

Wish I'd thought of that prior to spending all my BP elsewhere (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[HunterHerne]

Caine's STR 1 and 0 climb means a climbing pool of 0. Unless gecko tape gloves give you a dice pool bonus they probably won't do him much good either.

Wish I'd thought of that prior to spending all my BP elsewhere (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

They do indeed. Aided climbing gives you a +2 bonus to the climb check. That's a full 2 dice to Critical glitch with.

[Mardrax]

Str 1 is a recipe for disaster anyway. Any attribute at 1, for that matter. The only reason to take them is because you're using BP to build, and intend on sinking your first karma into raising them.
And yes, that's an IMHO.

[Seriously Mike]

Why would he have -4 dice? If the shooting character has good cover, he get's a +4 dice pool modifier to his defence pool. (SR4A 160)

In SR4, it was the other way, attacker had a -4 penalty. Both solutions make sense.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Caine's STR 1 and 0 climb means a climbing pool of 0. Unless gecko tape gloves give you a dice pool bonus they probably won't do him much good either.

Wish I'd thought of that prior to spending all my BP elsewhere (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Really perhaps this is the problem of your entire group: I would request to be able to rebuild all characters using Karmagen. You now probably won't have 25 dice to shoot, but you also won't have 1s in Attributes.

[Manunancy]

Ranged combat mods table: target in partial cover, -2, good cover -4, blind fire -6. Which makes sense, so you can't just say "full auto wide, now your cover doesn't count."

sound logical for me too - cover stops a bullets just the same wether it's aimed or not. Blind fire doesn't add up with concealment though : when you're hosing the target's general direction, it doesn't matter how much of it is hidden from view as long as the bullets can easily go through the obscuring item. light foliage, grass, smoke or an illusion spells are the same effect-wise.

[Machiavelli]

Str 1 is a recipe for disaster anyway. Any attribute at 1, for that matter. The only reason to take them is because you're using BP to build, and intend on sinking your first karma into raising them.
And yes, that's an IMHO.

Stenght 1 for a mage is absolutely sufficient. Mages have to be thin, strange guys with long beards, these spiky hats and an owl. More strenght, reaction, body and agility comes through magic...this is why they are called magicians. And yes, this was also IHMO.^^

[suoq]

Stenght 1 for a mage is absolutely sufficient. Mages have to be thin, strange guys with long beards, these spiky hats and an owl. More strenght, reaction, body and agility comes through magic...this is why they are called magicians. And yes, this was also IHMO.^^

This is entirely dependent on the non-use of background count (mana ebbs and void zones - Unwired 119). (Yes, Void zones are rare. Mana ebbs on the other hand...)

If these zone are used the mage with a strength 1 has the same problem as any one one-trick pony character. Whenever the situation is not in their Forté they have nothing to do but play computer games. Magic is only dependable if the GM makes it dependable.

[NumptyScrub]

Really perhaps this is the problem of your entire group: I would request to be able to rebuild all characters using Karmagen. You now probably won't have 25 dice to shoot, but you also won't have 1s in Attributes.

I'd love to use karmagen, but mainly because my pink mohawk is shouting "ooh Initiation!" for my adept trait (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

What's the 400BP equivalent in karma? I think Chummer gives a 750 default, is that considered usual for karmagen? I'll give it a go tonight and see if I can generalise better, without sacrificing too much specialisation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Critias]

Stenght 1 for a mage is absolutely sufficient. Mages have to be thin, strange guys with long beards, these spiky hats and an owl. More strenght, reaction, body and agility comes through magic...this is why they are called magicians. And yes, this was also IHMO.^^

This isn't D&D.

[Paul]

This isn't D&D.

What he said!

[Sephiroth]

Stenght 1 for a mage is absolutely sufficient. Mages have to be thin, strange guys with long beards, these spiky hats and an owl. More strenght, reaction, body and agility comes through magic...this is why they are called magicians. And yes, this was also IHMO.^^

Son, I am disappoint.

[Traul]

I put on my robe and wizard hat.

[fazzamar]

This isn't D&D.

This

I put on my robe and wizard hat.

That's pretty serious, but if a rhino shows up I'm outta here before shit get's real serious.

[Seriously Mike]

Stenght 1 for a mage is absolutely sufficient. Mages have to be thin, strange guys with long beards, these spiky hats and an owl. More strenght, reaction, body and agility comes through magic...this is why they are called magicians. And yes, this was also IHMO.^^

Oh well, boost attribute spell at Force 3 that kicks your Agility to 6 or 7 is easier on the drain than a Force 6 spell doing the same (to 6-7). Not to mention that when in high background count zone, you should be able to do something apart from spellcasting, like shooting things with a pistol or something like that.