[X] My Assistant

[Paul]

@Mardrax and Paul: This is the typical behavior of a free spirit. Summoned spirits won't act like that.

Who's to say how a spirit, even a summoned one, would react when given carte blanche to start thinking independently? The Sixth World is full of wonders, and perils for anyone too trusting.

[Dakka Dakka]

Asking the spirit how to best fulfill the Johnson's assignment hardly is a carte blanche. Anything not connected to that assignment is off limits. This most certainly includes spirit pacts.

BTW can summoned spirits even make spirit pacts? I highly doubt it. Otherwise spirits would be alot more powerful: Spend a service and dictate the pact.

[Critias]

For what it's worth, I think some of the heat you have been getting is a little harsh. Cut him a little slack boys and girls, he is coming here for advice not scorn, and he ain't doing too bad a job.

I'm not trying to bust the guy's balls, but the fact is he's been coming here and asking for GMing advice after every session, and then he's been not implementing that advice, and then just asking for advice again.

The crux of it remains that he's scared to kill the players, so the players feel no fear of consequences, so the players just keep trampling all over him, so he and the players aren't having a whole lot of fun (so after every session he comes here and asks for help). And every time people say "don't be scared to kill the players. Don't be a dick about it and just hit them with orbital cows, but really challenge them with some tough combat," and then the next session he doesn't, and it all starts again. Right now, he and his players are really missing out on one of the key ideas of Shadowrun -- that there's always someone nastier than you, and that fights should be scary -- and we're just trying to convince him to roll up his sleeves and get his hands a little bloody.

There's only so many times you can see someone getting the same advice, over and over again, before maybe you want to try and put an exclamation point on the end of the advice, this time, to see if it gets through. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

The crux of it remains that he's scared to kill the players characters, so the players feel no fear of consequences, so the players just keep trampling all over him, so he and the players aren't having a whole lot of fun (so after every session he comes here and asks for help). And every time people say "don't be scared to kill the players characters. Don't be a dick about it and just hit them with orbital cows, but really challenge them with some tough combat," and then the next session he doesn't, and it all starts again. Right now, he and his players are really missing out on one of the key ideas of Shadowrun -- that there's always someone nastier than you, and that fights should be scary -- and we're just trying to convince him to roll up his sleeves and get his hands a little bloody.

I fixed that according to what I think you tried to say. If you are seriously advising on killing the players, he won't have a group to play with.

[Critias]

Yeah, but then he could start over fresh.

[Dakka Dakka]

Just not playing with the old set would also achieve that goal, and would avoid all those annoying homicide investigations.

[Paul]

Asking the spirit how to best fulfill the Johnson's assignment hardly is a carte blanche.

That may be your take, and in your game you're welcome to it. In my own game, eventually questions like this would lead to more trouble than just trusting someone else to do your planning.

Anything not connected to that assignment is off limits. This most certainly includes spirit pacts.

Why? Because you want that to be true?

BTW can summoned spirits even make spirit pacts? I highly doubt it. Otherwise spirits would be alot more powerful: Spend a service and dictate the pact.

Just for the record I'm not even discussing Spirit Pacts. Others may be, but I am not.

As I see it-and all of this is relevant to my own game, because obviously in your own games, at your own tables you can do whatever you want-in the real world, which I like to see my own game as a admittedly twisted reflection of things don't always work the way we plan them to. And sometimes too good to be true is just that. Asking someone else for advice is one thing, this is tantamount to a dick move in my book-basically a lot like cheating. I'd let my players, if they were dumb enough to try it, try it. And then if they started abusing it I'd show them, with in the guidelines of the framework established by the rules, why this is a colossally stupid idea in my game.

Now in your game maybe it'll score some extra karma, but in my game I'd pretty much award all of the karma straight to the spirit, and slowly it would become more than just a summoned ally. It would quickly become a dangerous and unstable rival, and potential enemy.

[Paul]

Yeah, but then he could start over fresh.

Trust me, sometimes it doesn't work out the way we plan it. Heh. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) My own group has imploded on several occasions, and while I've been lucky so far I know eventually I'll hit my edge limit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[AppliedCheese]

Remember: Its not that corps, cops, and mobs couldn't crush you beneath their heels. Its that is often just not worth it. Somebody, somewhere, in those hierarchies is holding the release authority for the utter crushing. He probably has a little prebuilt decision matrix for how much collateral he's willing to accept, what resources are worth what, and a handy legal guide from the corp lawyers as to exactly what he is and is not allowed to do without getting clearance from higher.

F10 spirit attack is probably one of the circumstances highlighted in red, with a little box that says "Fuck it. Go for it. We'll pay the mages' overtime. Please contact our local director of Games Theory while your at it. "

Basically, the more force you put out (especially for extended periods of time) the more force the corps are going to throw back. And they have freakin catapults.

So, Slappy mcmurderface, done once, in and out...maybe, maybe not. Runners are damned fast, faster than the bureaucracy probably. So long as its not Zero Zone, and you stay low, quiet, and utterly black for a while, the heat will die - eventually. Of course, your in the database now. Every future provocation is going to make life harder. Not ideal, but hey, we've all machinegunned our way past the receptionist some time.

But "They tried to fake their way in with a magic truck. Then they kind of lied about it. Then they really failed at breaking in through a door, and magic'd their happy ass out of there. And then a spirit attacked the compound. We beat it. Now a bigger spirit is attacking." ..That is likely to bring the jagnormous pain. Because its pretty damn clear that someone is trying to get in, with a fierceness.

Or, in modern terms - say you try to rob a bank. You fail to convince the manager your an auditor. He throws your ass out. The same day you set off the alarms that night. The cops come, but you run. Next you try to ram your way into the door while shooting an uzi, but the bike hits tire strips on the way in. You run away in a hail "stop in the name of the law" shouts and a hail of gunfire. If you come back in a van with AKs two hours later, do you think rent-a-cop is still going to be there as your only obstacle, or is Boston SWAT about to blow your brains out?

[Mardrax]

Asking the spirit how to best fulfill the Johnson's assignment hardly is a carte blanche. Anything not connected to that assignment is off limits. This most certainly includes spirit pacts.

It's not like the spirit has any idea of what the runners are capable of. Especially if it's a hermetic spirit, it's likely to see humans as those annoying fellows who keep pulling it out of its cozy metaplanar home, to run some silly errands. This would lead to the logical conclusion that humans are incapable of doing anything of the sort themself. In the mean time, it keeps on hearing its free spirit buddies deliberate about how they could best get those mortals to sign their karma away...

And now they're asking me how to best get that -whatever this data thing they keep talking about- is, out of that strangely shaped hunk of nonorganic matter. Well there's a hole in it, with a ward. Bit tough to just smash, and it's not like I could get any help from these fleshbags who keep on asking my kin to do the strangest and simplest things. They obviously can't do anything meaningful themselves. But all this juicy karma can help me grow strong enough to smash that barrier, grab that box and fly out. It's not like any one of those mortals inside will stop me, anyway. But why would they stop me from taking a box in the first place? And it's not like it's their ward I'll smash through. Stupid humans leaving the astral all messy like that. Can't even do cleanup themselves.

The most outrageous things could be connected to that assignment, when tasked to a completely alien (super)intelligence.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

The most outrageous things could be connected to that assignment, when tasked to a completely alien (super)intelligence.

In my very humble opinion... most alien super-intelligences don't survive first contact with the script writer... So...

[Paul]

We need a "Like" or "+1" button for some posts! I approve of the two preceding posts wholeheartedly!

[LurkerOutThere]

But remember, the GM doesn't feel the need to come up with anything other then what's explicitly written in the modules but is also afraid to have the NPC's act in any smart way that might lead to PC death.. There's honestly no help for him at this point. At the risk of being overly harsh, you need to go back to DnD, isolated castle keeps and dungeons-of-plot might be more you and your groups speed. In Shadowrun there is a high potential you go in agaisnt things head on, you die. If your not doing that aspect because your afraid of character death then the whole system breaks down.

Edit Addendum: Looking back on this this might be a bit harsher then I intended, but i'm leaving it in place because it's basically how I feel at this point.

[Dakka Dakka]

That may be your take, and in your game you're welcome to it. In my own game, eventually questions like this would lead to more trouble than just trusting someone else to do your planning.

Yes, but it is someone who is forced to execute your orders to the best of his abilities. That is a lot better than trusting your fellow runners.

Why? Because you want that to be true?

No, but because the character gave a specific instruction to plan the run, not tell him what to do in life.

[Grinder]

Yeah, but then he could start over fresh.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Paul]

Yes, but it is someone who is forced to execute your orders to the best of his abilities.

Clearly you and I see this issue very differently. Your view point is so alien to me I'm not sure we'll ever see eye to eye. But since I have some time, and some patience I'll beat my head off the wall a few more times:

Best of what abilities? What exact abilities are we discussing? Why is you think that these abilities preclude grasping the fact that you've been summoned by a group of morons?

You're making a lot of assumptions, and again maybe in your game their solid assumptions to make.

That is a lot better than trusting your fellow runners.

Seriously? Trusting an extra-dimensional supernatural power is better than trusting your team? And i thought my game was twisted.

No, but because the character gave a specific instruction to plan the run, not tell him what to do in life.

There are a lot of assumptions being made by you, and frankly maybe in your game they're true. If so, fine. But in my own game this is not how things would work.

[Dakka Dakka]

Best of what abilities? What exact abilities are we discussing? Why is you think that these abilities preclude grasping the fact that you've been summoned by a group of morons?

Of course the spirit can grasp that it is summoned by a moron, and thus maybe resist with Edge, but once it is summoned it has to obey that moron.

You're making a lot of assumptions, and again maybe in your game their solid assumptions to make.

There is no assumption on my part. The rules clearly state that a spirit will fulfill a service to the best of its abilities.

When a spirit owes services and a service is requested, however, the spirit must obey. A service can either be situational (such as “Help fight these Triad enforcers” or “Put out that fire”) or power-related (such as “Sustain Concealment on me until I ask you to stop”). If a spirit is asked to perform a specific task, it will use any and all powers in its arsenal to complete that task, but will terminate those powers once the task is complete. If the spirit is asked to use a single power, it will continue to do so for as long as it is able to or until the conjurer asks it to cease.

The underlined part of course includes the spirit's mental faculties.

You and Mardrax however are advising that the spirit should actively work against the summoner's wishes or at least advise the morons to do stuff that only serves its own agenda (posts 23 and 24) in response to hyphz' post 10.

Seriously? Trusting an extra-dimensional supernatural power is better than trusting your team? And i thought my game was twisted.

I never said it was a good idea, I am just of the opinion that a summoned spirit is one of the less likely characters to cross the summoner.

[Mardrax]

You and Mardrax however are advising that the spirit should actively work against the summoner's wishes or at least advise the morons to do stuff that only serves its own agenda (posts 23 and 24) in response to hyphz' post 10.

Quite the contrary. I'm just pointing out that the spirit in question will very likely have far differing opinions about what constitutes the best possible outcome of any given assignment that you give it that includes any room for interpretation. And that it has a very fundamental inability to grasp the concepts of what makes this world function, what drives people, how they react to one thing or another, and quite possible even what they're able to do. And quite possibly large misconceptions about some of these things. And on any assignment that it's given, it will act from these conceptions, or the lack thereof. Working with the tools it knows is the most logical outcome.

And the scenario I've sketched isn't working against the summoner at all. It's not even detrimental to him. After all, in the end, he gets the MacGuffin, which was the requirement for a succesful run. And it's not as if the summoner loses anything. He might subsequently appear on most wanted lists as the high force spirit is tracked to him while it's wreaking havoc, but the spirit obviously doesn't know a single thing about such things as laws, let alone enforcement of it.

[Paul]

Dakka I clearly don't see us coming to any sort of agreement or resolution here. Your view point is pretty alien to me, and I guess mine must be to you. As such I'll cut loose with a final I agree to disagree with you. At my table you'd be well served by not trying something like this-at yours I guess it flies. Luckily we don't have to sit at each others tables so it's all good.

[Dakka Dakka]

Quite the contrary. I'm just pointing out that the spirit in question will very likely have far differing opinions about what constitutes the best possible outcome of any given assignment that you give it that includes any room for interpretation. And that it has a very fundamental inability to grasp the concepts of what makes this world function, what drives people, how they react to one thing or another, and quite possible even what they're able to do. And quite possibly large misconceptions about some of these things. And on any assignment that it's given, it will act from these conceptions, or the lack thereof. Working with the tools it knows is the most logical outcome.

I totally agree and may have misunderstood your previous posts. Spirits probably will have different opinions on what is the best way to fulfill the service. I merely wanted to say that summoned spirits won't actively go against the summoner.

And the scenario I've sketched isn't working against the summoner at all. It's not even detrimental to him. After all, in the end, he gets the MacGuffin, which was the requirement for a succesful run. And it's not as if the summoner loses anything. He might subsequently appear on most wanted lists as the high force spirit is tracked to him while it's wreaking havoc, but the spirit obviously doesn't know a single thing about such things as laws, let alone enforcement of it.

In your previous post

"Well master, first I'd advise all of you to sign this pact with me, so that I may more fully aid you _{(for the mere price of all the karma you will ever recieve)} and grow more powerful in the process, to aid you even more on later ventures."

there is no mention that the spirit pact actually aids in completing the run nor that the rest of the spirit's advice would lead to the acquisition of the McGuffin or whatever the objective was, only that the summoner will never have any Karma. I see that as unhelpful and detrimental. That is what I commented on.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

In your previous post there is no mention that the spirit pact actually aids in completing the run nor that the rest of the spirit's advice would lead to the acquisition of the McGuffin or whatever the objective was, only that the summoner will never have any Karma. I see that as unhelpful and detrimental. That is what I commented on.

I would be willing to bet the Actual Spirit Pact could have been QUITE Useful... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Not as useful as the Karma though...

[Mardrax]

In your previous post there is no mention that the spirit pact actually aids in completing the run nor that the rest of the spirit's advice would lead to the acquisition of the McGuffin or whatever the objective was, only that the summoner will never have any Karma. I see that as unhelpful and detrimental. That is what I commented on.

Some things fall by the wayside for brevity for comedic purpose. Mea culpa. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Warlordtheft]

Also stop worrying about running things fairly, eyeball more stuff. It's not a contest between you and them, you've got to let that adversarial crap go with DnD. You know what power level your opposition should have, make up sensor ratings and such on the fly to get there.

Your other option is to ignore power levels, and go for what would a realistic response be. Case in point--the illusion spell would have caused them all sorts of trouble in the follow on attempts as Doc Wagon would be tailing them to see what they were up to. The minute hostile action starts, assume that not only is 1 spirit for each OPFOR mage, but there is also 1 for each point of charisma. There would naturally be a limit, but sending 10 force 3 or 4 spirits at them simultaneously would not be an unreasonable response.

Sensors:It is better to just set a number of dice equal to what you consider appropriate. Remember things like ultrasound, shot-gun mikes, and radar ignore invisibility, camoflage suits and other vision based modifiers.

Does any one of them have a Doc Wagon contract?

The force 10 spirit should have used edge to resist summoning IMHO. My general rule of thumb is that if the magic of the magician is lower than the spirits edge is automatically used. Also, abusing the spirits (like using them as cannon fodder) can lead to them resisting with edge. Also even without edge the mage could suffer drain as it is 2Xhits on the resistance check. So even He does get enough success he should get smacked with the drain.

[hyphz]

But remember, the GM doesn't feel the need to come up with anything other then what's explicitly written in the modules but is also afraid to have the NPC's act in any smart way that might lead to PC death.. There's honestly no help for him at this point. At the risk of being overly harsh, you need to go back to DnD, isolated castle keeps and dungeons-of-plot might be more you and your groups speed. In Shadowrun there is a high potential you go in agaisnt things head on, you die. If your not doing that aspect because your afraid of character death then the whole system breaks down.

I see this is quite fair. The point is that I'm keen to make things more dangerous for the PCs but I'm just not sure _how_ to do it. So many of the cries here seem to be just saying I should drop a meteor on them. Or that I should engineer opponents who are certain to defeat them and put them up against those, which is dropping a meteor on them with whiskers. And as I've mentioned - if all the PCs die, the campaign ends, we go back to arranging the next campaign and if people weren't enjoying Shadowrun they won't vote for it again. I've no problem with making things more dangerous or smacking down the more extreme character designs but killing the entire group is a risky business.

And I _do_ think it's kind of silly for Zod to put all his points into being twice as accurate with an automatic weapon as the best marksman in the real world is or could be - ever - and then complain there aren't many people in the world who can outshoot him! I mean, if a player obviously wants to be special that way my logic usually says that I should let them.

I mean, I think things could open out to give the group trouble and then they turn out to be problematic:
- The magical traces Dawg has been leaving around look like a big giveaway but in fact the average Assensing skill for book mages, when rolled, doesn't get enough successes to get much from them most of the time!
- Yes, DocWagon could have called for extra security (although with only one person on site who can see into the astral, they probably weren't that aware of the Spirit attacks), but how do I justify the "extra security" being a guy with a heavy machine gun and rocket launcher and several ton of personal armor who is the only person who could challenge Zod (and who therefore could destroy all the other runners in a phase)?
- They've gotten themselves in plenty of trouble with Lone Star, especially now they've interfered with an investigation, but on previous encounters have expressed no wish to fight the police. That means that if I have them all arrested there's at least a fair chance they'll all surrender and then campaign over, see above.

[HunterHerne]

I see this is quite fair. The point is that I'm keen to make things more dangerous for the PCs but I'm just not sure _how_ to do it. So many of the cries here seem to be just saying I should drop a meteor on them. Or that I should engineer opponents who are certain to defeat them and put them up against those, which is dropping a meteor on them with whiskers. And as I've mentioned - if all the PCs die, the campaign ends, we go back to arranging the next campaign and if people weren't enjoying Shadowrun they won't vote for it again. I've no problem with making things more dangerous or smacking down the more extreme character designs but killing the entire group is a risky business.

If you use the Prime Runners rules, go for inferior builds, with the same type of characters the PC's the have (though not the exact same characters with lower stats). Use tactics. Force them to think further then the next spray of bullets. If your group seems too powerful for the PC's, you can fudge some rolls.