[X] My Assistant

[hyphz]

If you use the Prime Runners rules, go for inferior builds, with the same type of characters the PC's the have (though not the exact same characters with lower stats). Use tactics. Force them to think further then the next spray of bullets. If your group seems too powerful for the PC's, you can fudge some rolls.

What tactics do you recommend?

[suoq]

if I have them all arrested there's at least a fair chance they'll all surrender and then campaign over, see above.

It sounds like you're trying to run a gritty "your character is risking death" campaign with people who will go find something else to do if their character gets killed/captured.

Suggestions:
1) Consider Docwagon Platinum as a way to kill characters without consequence.
2) Consider giving up on the grit/risk and accept that your players don't want consequence.

[Critias]

So many of the cries here seem to be just saying I should drop a meteor on them. Or that I should engineer opponents who are certain to defeat them and put them up against those, which is dropping a meteor on them with whiskers.

That's not what anyone has said, or is saying, and it's unlikely it's what anyone will say in the future. I'm not sure where you're getting that opinion, but if that's what you're taking away from comments like "challenge them," I can understand your frustration.

No one -- to my recollection -- is saying to wipe them out by GM fiat. We're just saying to take a look at the fights they've been in, see how handily they're dealing with them, and then change it so that future fights don't get casually strolled over. It's not a level based game so it's a little harder to gauge this sort of thing than in other systems, I admit; but it's still one of the things you've got to do, or your game falls apart. No challenge means no investment means no interest means no game, just as surely as if you did drop a meteor on them, only it's a lot less clean to die a slow, lingering, death of boredom and disinterest.

We're not saying to slaughter them, we're saying to hit them. "Don't be scared to kill them" =/= "kill them." It just means to take the kid gloves off, ramp things up in their next fight or two, and make them feel a little pressure, man.

[Udoshi]

One of the players recently suggested they should just summon a Force 10 spirit and ask it to plan and lead the run for them as with mental stats of 10, it is not only smarter than all the characters but also smarter than all the players.

My god.

This. Let them do this.

But have an insect spirit/free spirit in disguise show up in response to their summons. (Mutable form, realistic form?)

Have it start sending them on odd milk runs, seeing how far it can manipulate their newfound willing puppets.

(i would also recommend looking up the rules for Calling in running wild, because it covers the sort of noobie ritual magic of waving your hands at the astral trying to get something to stop by, with little protection like summoning and binding offers. )

[Neraph]

My god.

This. Let them do this.

But have an insect spirit/free spirit in disguise show up in response to their summons. (Mutable form, realistic form?)

Have it start sending them on odd milk runs, seeing how far it can manipulate their newfound willing puppets.

(i would also recommend looking up the rules for Calling in running wild, because it covers the sort of noobie ritual magic of waving your hands at the astral trying to get something to stop by, with little protection like summoning and binding offers. )

I actually had the idea that the spirit would have naturally assumed that they'd be able to fly over the wall of the dead end it leads them to. After all, it can. The most brilliant minds in existance can sometimes overlook things.

[Dakka Dakka]

But have an insect spirit/free spirit in disguise show up in response to their summons. (Mutable form, realistic form?)

Why would this happen? Where is the successfully summoned spirit? If the summoning was not successful, why doesn't the summoner know? Why does the free spirit have exactly the right realistic form to impersonate the spirit that was supposed to be summoned?

(i would also recommend looking up the rules for Calling in running wild, because it covers the sort of noobie ritual magic of waving your hands at the astral trying to get something to stop by, with little protection like summoning and binding offers. )

I think it is less a problem of the characters being newbies/stupid, but rather that the players have different expectations that the GM how SR is supposed to go.

@Neraph: This is entirely possible.

[Midas]

Hyphz,

Shadowrun is a game of eggshells and hammers, so characters who live by the gun often end up dying by the gun, that's just the way it is. Zod might be a god with his automatic weapon of choice, but that doesn't mean that enemies who are scattered and using cover intelligently won't be able to injure or even kill him, especially with narrow or wide burst autofire. You can also challenge him by sending him into high security parts of town where he will have to make do with a concealed pistol rather than his trusty deathspitter. Also, tasers can do him a non-lethal world of harm in their incapacitating effects. Note you should not be out to get him, but just giving him opposition that challenges him more and makes him learn to use tactics.

For example, you told me the gang your players had been terrorizing have been lying low. Well, lying low is bad for business and terrible for rep, so maybe they could decide to take things into their own hands. They drop a rumour on the street that they are lying low in an abandoned factory or whatever, hoping that it will get to Zod et al's ears. They are indeed in the abandoned factory, but with a mixture of cash and calling in favours with the mob have also brought in a rag-tag group of runners to help them turn tables on Zod's crew. There will be a mage with spirits as astral security to stop your group's mage astrally reconnoiting and to counter his magic rumpcard in a firefight, and (although be careful) perhaps a sniper hidden away in a vantage point under a moss-covered tarp (helps hide his astral as well as physical presence). Perhaps there are one or two more sammy types to marshall and organize the gangers in a firefight. The gang should have most/all entrances to the factory monitered and/or booby-trapped, even the high windows etc., although if the characters surprise you with a novel way in you haven't thought of, perhaps you can assume the gang won't have thought of it either.

Should your player characters take the bait, play the thing out and let the dice fall where they may. Don't be afraid to let any of the players take lethal damage, they can always burn edge to stay alive with a valuable lesson learned.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

I see this is quite fair. The point is that I'm keen to make things more dangerous for the PCs but I'm just not sure _how_ to do it. So many of the cries here seem to be just saying I should drop a meteor on them. Or that I should engineer opponents who are certain to defeat them and put them up against those, which is dropping a meteor on them with whiskers. And as I've mentioned - if all the PCs die, the campaign ends, we go back to arranging the next campaign and if people weren't enjoying Shadowrun they won't vote for it again. I've no problem with making things more dangerous or smacking down the more extreme character designs but killing the entire group is a risky business.

There are ALWAYS suggestions of doing something excessively heavy-handed, but you can safely ignore them. However, you DO need to up the ante, or else your players will just get bored. On the other hand, they are obviously not the type to deal with complicated high-tech puzzles such as every harder intrusions invariably turns into, hence my suggestion of going MORE mohawk, including increasing the combat efficiency of everyday opposition they might meet.

- Yes, DocWagon could have called for extra security (although with only one person on site who can see into the astral, they probably weren't that aware of the Spirit attacks), but how do I justify the "extra security" being a guy with a heavy machine gun and rocket launcher and several ton of personal armor who is the only person who could challenge Zod (and who therefore could destroy all the other runners in a phase)?

You don't bring in ONE guy who can out-shoot your sam. You bring in 5-6 who seriously inconvenience the rest of the team, and have a chance at hurting your sam. Enemies with 2 IPs and about 10-15 dice to shoot, who use wide long bursts to cut down PC defences without throwing out so much damage as to one-shot them. They should also use cover to improve their defences, so they might not have to full-dodge against anyone but the sammy. They should also perhaps have a mage on hand to deal with excessive stun-bolt/balling, but of course make him look like the rest of them.

Something like this:

advanced corpsec thugs
Perhaps up the Reaction a bit more so they have a better chance of avoiding death from a half-assed shot.

And finally, instead of worrying all the time, you really bring on the heat, and only tone it down if you find that the PCs can't take it. Usually, PCs are stronger than you think, because the players can think of things to do which you had not anticipated. And then you let them use their creative solutions, because that's what's fun about the game.

As a GM, there are just a few basic rules to follow:

- Don't plan for player actions
- Don't worry too much
- Build scenario, not plot
- Get a good grasp of the game! and learn to gauge the numbers

If you decide that maybe your current run isn't as satisfying for everyone as you thought, then you might have to do some work on your own. I recommend going about it like this:
http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/mi...ode-design.html

This guy has a good grasp on scenario design, and since I've been following these suggestions I have managed to really engage my players in a very combat-light investigation run.

[Wiseman]

No need for rocks from space. It comes down to challenging their weaknesses and forcing teamwork.

Zod has super automatics? then limit his ability to use them in a few choice encounters. This has a few benefits

1) The encounter is no longer an I win shoot out
2) Zod begins to see that putting all your eggs in one basket isn't so hot an idea
3) Players will see that doing the same ABC routine doesn't always work.

How do you limit his ability to use automatics? Get creative! This is the same scenario as the fighter's magic sword in DnD.

Couple of examples
1) High security areas requiring checking the weapon (MAD scanners, strip search, etc.)
2) Damage the weapon in the middle of a firefight (watch for critical glitches to capitalize on)
3) Situations where guns won't help

So here is an example scenario. Zod hates the gangers, so have the gangers call him out, only they want to challenge him to an unarmed combat. Winner take all. This builds background, story, memories, and...character. Zod can cheat, but he'll take the rep hit and the gangers can become an enemy group (give him the negative quality for no points). If Zod doesn't cheat and loses, let him burn edge to live (Lone Star drone drops spotlight and demands everyone freeze before Zod gets his face punched in). If Zod wins, he learned the value of other skills, had a challenge, and feels good for roughing up that gang leader. That's win win win.

The GM has infinite power by using situation and circumstance to make anything a challenge. It just takes practice to find the balance. Maybe Zod does die since he tries to cheat in a way that is noticed and the gangers react in kind (example Zod pulls a gun midfight and all the gangers decide to open fire). Don't pull punches, if he made a choice to cheat and it goes badly, let him burn edge (why its there).

This has nothing to do with creating a TPK scenario. It's all about upping the challenge by playing off weaknesses and strengths. Having the murdermobile in the news isn't to bring the wrath of god on them, only up it's visibility which has roleplaying ramifications (news van follows them on next run after recognizing the car, lone star keeps trying to catch them and ups the stakes whenever it appears in public, etc.)

No one is saying thwart their every efforts at success, but in the sales world, you need to "move the cheese". The cheese right now is very easy to find and get to, and thats just not fun for anyone. As GM are you even having fun? I'm not clear how much experience you have as a GM/DM, because some of this is just general running a game knowledge and is not specific to shadowrun.

There are so many things you can do to up the stakes without being heavy handed, that I personally am starting to think you have a mental block (no offense really). Stop taking it so serious and think what would be fun. And just like you can have encounters that play off a character's weakness, sometimes you should have some where they get to shine. After bringing them back down with some runs they can't solve with just bullets, let them have an old fashioned shootout where there are no moral dilemmas.

And yes, fudge things. If Zod walks through an encounter with some gangers in one combat turn and it was supposed to be climatic, add another ganger on a nearby roof with a rocket launcher. Add a mage, add a vampire, hell add a dragon!

Finally, there should be sometime in the near future an encounter so strong the players are MEANT to run. Those that don't see when they're overwhelmed or feel invincible, die. Those smarter are rewarded with their lives. There is ALWAYS something bigger and meaner than you and prudence dictates you do what every other creature does and save your ass.

Also, some of the stuff you're allowing is wrong. Trid phantasm doesn't disguise anything. Mask, Physical Mask, Vehicle Mask are the spells for changing the appearance of things. Trid phantasm creates a stand alone illusion (probably can hide behind it, but not allowed to put it over something as a second skin). Coming from DnD, you should have a pretty good idea of illusion spell distinctions.

How about this, if you really want help, post the character's stats and come up with an objective you want them to complete, and we'll all help you "tweak" the encounter just right to be a proper challenge. Then see how that goes. Think of it as a mini adventure (and i'm sure we all can come up with plenty of ideas).

[Dakka Dakka]

Mostly sond advice Wiseman, but I would not count on that:

2) Damage the weapon in the middle of a firefight (watch for critical glitches to capitalize on)

Glitches, especially critical ones, are highly unlikely with high dice pools.

[Wiseman]

Agreed, but it was just a small sample of things and probably the most basic is ruin the firearm somehow (replaceable after that encounter).

Critical Glitch was a mechanics reason for that possibility, but there are plenty of others. If you wanted to be really creative, have them have a firefight near a superconductor or something else with a large EMF that adds dice pool penalties to everyone shooting a gun. (Not sure how sound the science of that is, but it seemed plausible enough).

In DnD, they always had ways to spice up encounters by using environment, such as fighting over a chasm filled with magma, underwater, etc.

Underwater poses another good plausible scenario where firearms are far less effective. But yes, I think a critical glitch isn't common with high dice pools (but hardly improbable and definitely not impossible).

[Dakka Dakka]

Critical Glitch was a mechanics reason for that possibility, but there are plenty of others. If you wanted to be really creative, have them have a firefight near a superconductor or something else with a large EMF that adds dice pool penalties to everyone shooting a gun. (Not sure how sound the science of that is, but it seemed plausible enough).

Unless I missed the memo about superconductors at room temperature in SR, you have a bigger problem than an EM field. Thermal insulation should also provide fair electrical insulation. Moreover superconductors do not generate great EM fields as superconductivity vanishes if you use a too strong current.

In DnD, they always had ways to spice up encounters by using environment, such as fighting over a chasm filled with magma, underwater, etc.

Underwater poses another good plausible scenario where firearms are far less effective. But yes, I think a critical glitch isn't common with high dice pools (but hardly improbable and definitely not impossible).

Sounds good, but unless the opposition manages to ambush the team those conditions probably will also apply to them.

[Wiseman]

Unless I missed the memo about superconductors at room temperature in SR, you have a bigger problem than an EM field. Thermal insulation should also provide fair electrical insulation. Moreover superconductors do not generate great EM fields as superconductivity vanishes if you use a too strong current.

Damn you science!

Ok, plan C to destroy the gun, corrosive toxic spirit wants to thumb wrestle? Hacker mayyyybe gets close enough to hack the player's master node and tamper with the smartlink to eject clip?

Really doesn't matter what you use, as long as the player's faith in the characters ability to always kill everything with his preferred weapon is shaken.

Visibility can also do a lot to reduce ranged combat dice pools.

Sounds good, but unless the opposition manages to ambush the team those conditions probably will also apply to them.

But that's still not a bad thing, since it removes a player's primary strength regardless and creates unique circumstances that may force the players out of their comfort zone.

[suoq]

Wiseman: From these threads have you gotten the idea that the players are willing to have their faith shaken or anyone at the table (including the GM) is willing to leave their comfort zone?

As far as I can see, the GM is looking to Shadowrun and Dumpshock to change the behavior of his table WITHOUT his players noticing it or they'll run away to a new game.

[Wiseman]

From these threads have you gotten the idea that the players are willing to have their faith shaken or anyone at the table (including the GM) is willing to leave their comfort zone?

Good point. Well I go on the assumption that he must if he's asking advice and based on the tone of the threads. While it's the GM's fear that challenging them may result in backlash, I'm not sure what his players think.

I do think they're bored however, and the games devolved into a roll-playing game, much like a video game RPG where the conversations are "clicked through" to get back to fighting.

But your point does highlight the need for the GM to have a talk with the players about what they expect/want from the game, as was suggested by many D-shockers multiple times.

Not sure how to help other than keep feeding him advice. The old adage, can lead a horse to water and all that.

Honestly, at one point I thought we were being trolled, what with the way some of it is passed off as the system being broken with very little set in opposition to the players that stems from things other than dice pools.

As a GM, I'd have a hard time with this group. As a player, I'd have a hard time finding enjoyment too. If I had to go on assumption, I don't think the players are confident in the GM and don't think the GM is confident enough in himself to inspire confidence. It almost seems as if the player's "tolerate" the GM and he walks on eggshells as though he's supposed to provide all the fun and they just roll dice.

Fun is had when everyone is on the same page and are actively contributing to the story elements, not detracting from them with a "get on with it" mentality. I can see that toning down combat or making it less of an emphasis probably won't go over to well with the players, but without incorporating more than the "quest giver" johnson sending them to Kill X or collect Y, they're probably missing out on a lot of what makes PnP games so imaginative.

Shadowrun just isn't a dungeon crawl, arcology or no. The closest DnD had for equivalency were city based campaigns, and a lot of DM's struggle with the whole intrigue and politics that serve as the backdrop.

So yea, I kinda agree with you that it may just be a bad fit. Definitely there is more to the story than we're understanding from the game posts and maybe OP can expand on exactly what his hold ups are (outside the TPK scenario he already addressed).

[Warlordtheft]

No one -- to my recollection -- is saying to wipe them out by GM fiat. We're just saying to take a look at the fights they've been in, see how handily they're dealing with them, and then change it so that future fights don't get casually strolled over. It's not a level based game so it's a little harder to gauge this sort of thing than in other systems, I admit; but it's still one of the things you've got to do, or your game falls apart. No challenge means no investment means no interest means no game, just as surely as if you did drop a meteor on them, only it's a lot less clean to die a slow, lingering, death of boredom and disinterest.

I'm hitting the +1 button here. Remember that starting PC's can and normally do have one area of expertise. The advantage to this is two fold, one you have less to worry about a PC being newer. Two you have less concern about over doing the opposition.

Side note, my plots tend to develop based on players actions. The scenario/job is kinda of a vehicle used to help the PC's move the plot along (or encourage it at least). Case in point, I bastardized the first dawn of the artifacts campaign since the group was already in lagos due to a FUBAR result of their last mission in seattle. Part of running any SR prepacked adventure I find is that you have to adjust them to suite your group. Don't be afraid to do that, and most importantly of all don't worry if the players fail.

[DMiller]

Damn you science!

Ok, plan C to destroy the gun, corrosive toxic spirit wants to thumb wrestle? Hacker mayyyybe gets close enough to hack the player's master node and tamper with the smartlink to eject clip?

Called Shot to Zod's gun. Causes a -4 DP to the attack test. If it hits as a minimum it knocks it out of Zod's hands, at worst destroys the gun, but will likely be somewhere in between. Base what happens to the gun on how many successes the attacker has.

-D

[Manunancy]

A nasty trick can be to have some corporate/army/law enforcement oppostion with boobytraped guns. Grab the ennemy's fancy gun and shoot it without removing the safety system and you're going to loose a hand...

A nicer version would have a gun with an electric firec fire control that refuses to fire when the shoort hasn't ben properly introduced.

[Udoshi]

Why would this happen? Where is the successfully summoned spirit? If the summoning was not successful, why doesn't the summoner know? Why does the free spirit have exactly the right realistic form to impersonate the spirit that was supposed to be summoned?

1) Shits and giggles? Gm fiat? Because playing with fire and handing off leadership to someone you don't even know is really, really dumb?

2) "Sorry man, i got stuff to do, steve, take my shift on the summoning watch, hey?"

3) realistic+mutable covers any permutation, you know. Its pretty hilarious.

Besides, a magician doesn't have control over summoning specific spirits, do they? Oh, sure, they can summon a fire spirit and customize their powers, and they can also do so later, but I don't believe summoning lets you call that same, specific one back at a later date - calling does, however, because you can use specific rites for specific spirits.

The point being that you can summon a specific type, but where does it say you can force a specific named spirit to appear? People assume it works that way.

[Udoshi]

They should also perhaps have a mage on hand to deal with excessive stun-bolt/balling, but of course make him look like the rest of them.

I've found that a bound spirit with Magical Guard escorting a group of mundane corp security does WONDERS to keep your runner's mage from walking all over them.(its on a remote service to provide counterspelling and assistance.)

Guardian, Guidance, and Plant spirits all have magical guard BTW. So if the opposition has an Aztec, Christian, or Shinto mage on staff(there are more, but i wanted to give an example, not a laundry list)..... its not far fetched to whip up a spirit and have it babysit some fleshbags.

[Magus]

The OP said he was running Ghost Cartels correct? Wasn't there a free prequel to GC called Bad Moon Rising? It was downloadable from Catalyst I think. In it there is section of the runners in HK in Kowloon City, they are stuck in an ambush. They have some cover in a burning building which is pouring out Tempo laced smoke with snipers and mages on the rooftops overlooking the only exit from burning building. One of the mages has Wreck Gun as a spell (AOE) tht he casts immediately on any runners he sees holding, carring, wearing guns. Once you beat the OR which is 4 (AFB at the moment) the weapon is immediately destroyed.

Now this is in a official campaign and it is LETHAL. Every gun the runners are caring, holding or whatever that is VISIBLE is a target. GunBunnies hate this spell when I use it against them. Use in conjuction with bullet barrier and your gun bunny with love you for it.

[Dakka Dakka]

The problem with the Wreck Gun spell is that it works exactly like a Power Ball except that it is restricted to guns. How big is a gun's condition monitor? How does a partially destroyed gun work?
And then there is the question what falls under the term gun. A grenade launcher? An RPG? A taser? The Fichetti Pain Inducer? A laser?

[HunterHerne]

The problem with the Wreck Gun spell is that it works exactly like a Power Ball except that it is restricted to guns. How big is a gun's condition monitor? How does a partially destroyed gun work?
And then there is the question what falls under the term gun. A grenade launcher? An RPG? A taser? The Fichetti Pain Inducer? A laser?

All valid. Honestly, I would hold it to the strictest meaning of the word "gun", which is more akin to "cannon". Hand held projectile weapons should be under firearms (yeah, like the skill group), and the heavier weapons would fall under the same headline as their skill. The exotic weapons are really hard to pin down, but I would probably put them under "energy weapon", for purposes of those spells.

As far as partially destroyed guns, I would treat it like a used vehicle, in other words, GM fiat (especially since there is nothing written on the effects) and treat it like a barrier if I really wanted to determine the damage it takes, which most weapons would likely have structure based on a heavy material. For pistols-sized weapons, I would give them 3 boxes. For rifles, 5. Assault rifles would have 6, Machine guns would start at 8, +1 for each size higher, (Or for each barrer, in the case of miniguns). But, that is all my opinion.

[Magus]

That is the closest I could find as well Hunter. I gave them barrier ratings based on size and components.

[HunterHerne]

What tactics do you recommend?

In the barrens? I would recommend a lot of firepower. Start with the cheapest weapon that go full auto, and let the PC's have a taste of suppression fire. Next, at least 2 guys use cover from the ruined building to go around the PC's (allow the PC's a perception test vs infiltration with penalties like distraction, wounds if they get them, and anything else you can pick off the perception table or out of your head). Once they get them in a flank, get them in a cross fire. If you use multiple suppression fires, subtract 1 from the deence test for each suppression beyond the first (This is in War! One of the rules they mention that I do like.). And someone to try picking them off (maybe a cheap shotgun, or a heavy pistol, depending how cruel you want to be). This can be done with really weak opposition, fairly eaisly, and still be quite lethal and challenging.

If they are in the car, use a bomb to at least temporarily disable the vehicle. Remember, while they are in the car, they get it's armour. Once the bomb goes off, maybe some things jam (if the car might be able to run afterwards), and is stuck. They need to get out to push it free, and get hit with the suppression.

If you are in a more upscale part of town, you want to ambush them with more Black Trenchcoat-like guys. Make it clear the surrounding buildings are populated by families. Give them an out, but don't make it easy. Let them escape, and work to figure out what happened there.

If they go after the gang: The same tactics can apply, but home field advantage is a definite here. The gangers want to still have a place aterwards, so they use stick-n-shock, or gel-rounds. The furniture is arranged so they can surround the PC's easily, and use it for cover. Get a crossffire going. One tactic I used was an unarmed combat guy acting as a diversion while a guy with a pistol tried to pick off the PC. The PC survived the encounter, but he was banged up. He enjoyed the fight, and was happy to get away alive.