[X] My Assistant

[HunterHerne]

That is the closest I could find as well Hunter. I gave them barrier ratings based on size and components.

Good to know I'm not alone, at least.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The problem with the Wreck Gun spell is that it works exactly like a Power Ball except that it is restricted to guns. How big is a gun's condition monitor? How does a partially destroyed gun work?
And then there is the question what falls under the term gun. A grenade launcher? An RPG? A taser? The Fichetti Pain Inducer? A laser?

Weapons likely have no Body (stat), so I tend to give them 8 Boxes. Each 3 boxes of physical damage causes a -1 to its use. At 9 Boxes, it is destroyed.
Barrier Ratings are also a good alternative to that as well, though that is open to a lot more interpretation as to where something should fall on the table.

[Manunancy]

As far as partially destroyed guns, I would treat it like a used vehicle, in other words, GM fiat (especially since there is nothing written on the effects) and treat it like a barrier if I really wanted to determine the damage it takes, which most weapons would likely have structure based on a heavy material. For pistols-sized weapons, I would give them 3 boxes. For rifles, 5. Assault rifles would have 6, Machine guns would start at 8, +1 for each size higher, (Or for each barrer, in the case of miniguns). But, that is all my opinion.

In my opinion a minigun should be easier to break than a regular machigun - though it might have a slightly higher object resistance. It is far more complex, with things like an electric motor to rotate the barrel, a loading system that has to cope wit thhose same rotating barrels and the like, wher a machinegun has it's bolt only rocking back and forth (of course there's more than that, but I simplify a lot). The more complex a machine, the more things can go wrong and the easier it is to wreck.

[AppliedCheese]

There is the ever popular other solution to Zod, brought to you by WWI flyers:

"Aim for the man, not the machine." We can find a million technical ways to break his gun...but they all look like a GM trying to break his gun. He does not sound like he will respond well to being specifically targeted. He already sits out sessions when there's no shooting.

Instead look for ways to hurt him WHILE he has his automatics skill and gun in hand. If he's uber min-maxed, and not aware of the great dangers of DNI, have a script kiddie Black Hammer him in the middle of a firefight.

Instead of fighting toe to toe, even form positions of great advantage (lets face it -4 to a 28 DP is not going to deter him), turn the firefight into a stalk and shoot where he doesn't have D & D perfect information, but instead has to go through an area unawares. Come around the corner to two blasts from a shotgun on wide choke. Make combat more than "here are your targets to be serviced. The man who services the most targets fastest, wins!"

Imagine thusly: Its time to kill some Ragers! Yeah! Rock out! But as the real world amply demonstrates, gangs do not all sit in one convenient headquarters talking to themselves about how awesome being in a gang is. They tend to live in the area. They tend to have relatives. They are inherently dispersed and diverse, but with safehouses.

So you go in hard and fast, and blammo! The first gangers you see die in a hideous rain of fire. Which is right and proper. But now the entire neighborhood "might" be hostile. Some will be, some will be people who just live there. How do you deal with pop shots from targets you can't see, targets who run away after their first IP before your turn ever comes around. A 13 year old script kid three apartments over who is hacking your PAN in the middle of this? Can't even have a chance to see him. And if you pursue the gangers into the hood, you find that every alleyway, every room is a potential ambush. 8/10 won't be, but two wide shotgun blasts previously unexpected can make a team careful.

Automatics 28 doesn't count for jack if you can't get a good shot. Make him out-think the enemy to get his licks in. Don't just present them as "then the ragers form firing line, and you swap musket volleys at 50 paces"

[Mardrax]

What tactics do you recommend?

Cover!
Maneuvering behind said cover. Stealth. Surprise rolls are nasty.
Hold actions until it's the right time to use them. Wait for them to pop up from behind cover.
Lay down surpressive fire (from two angles), then toss a few tear gas/nausea gas/pepper punch grenades around. Use ones looted from Lone Star, to have any victims be covered in marking dye as well.
Trouble by someone with a high defensive pool? Use dual-wielding rules properly. Dice pool modifications like specialisation and laser sight are added after the split. Someone with Agility 3 and Pistols 2 (Semi auto), can split his pool into 1 and 5 dice, shooting that lasersighted Manhunter with respective pools of 3 and 7. Do this twice and your target's defensive pool will be down considerably on the last shot. Add in a narrow bursting AK and that's a lot of hurting.
Probably not enough to put someone down, or just barely. But it's scary, at least.

[Dahrken]

Also, using the right location, particularly if they are expected and the opposition has a good knowledge of the area and time to prepair (like a gang going into hidding).

Gangers who have the depth and covers to takes a few shots (or wide bursts) from behind cover and then fall back a few times won't be killed as fast as if the stand their ground to death. It can even be a lure, to draw you into a killzone for their buddies with AKs and maybe a stolen LMG or a few grenades.

No matter how pimped the "Murdercar" is, if there is mud deep enough it's likely to sink it up to the floor and stay stuck there until you bring out the showels. A variant is to have someone shoot from behind a plank palisade or boarded door large enough for the car, if they fall for it and crash though they discover the hard way there is a hole behind (like a downward staircase or a large ditch) big and deep enough to trap the car. A bit nastier, some 55 gallons barrels filled with stones and rammed earth or 10x22 I-beams sets in concrete are likely to severely damage the car...

[suoq]

have a script kiddie Black Hammer him in the middle of a firefight.

I would love to hear, under the rules of SR4, how this is even remotely possible.

Much of what you describe is fun, but huge portions of it seem difficult to me under the rules as or assume poor tactics on the part of the PCs.

[Mardrax]

Nary a street sam uses hotsim VR in the middle of a firefight.
And I don't believe they have a rigger.

[Neraph]

Right, but you can hack and subvert their PANs. Make their triggers non-responsive. Start broadcasting their info. Make a call to the 'Star from their guncams/smartguns. Turn off their getaway car. Detonate any of their Airburst Link grenades while they're still on their belts.

[AppliedCheese]

I believe any trode set up works on Direct Neural Interface. Where there is DNI, Black IC works. If your running via ar glove or feedback clothing, or even an old turtle rig, your safe, but once your PAN is essentially taking mental commands, your brain is exposed. I believe there's even a semi-largish article on it in unwired (don't have the page at hand - its has a picture of a kid looking like his brain is electrocuting him.) Should have said black out, not black hammer.

As for shoot and run - ganger uses LOS breaks and.or Infil to sneak into firing position. Either on a surprise round or after the PC IP, he shoots, then moves back out of LOS. If the players choose not to pursue, rinse, repeat. occasionally the PCs will get a shot on one, but it will greatly reduce the "2x mooks per IP, 3 IPs per turn, I can gun down 6 mooks per turn."

As will things like rolling out of the way of windows and such after shooting. Blind fire, full cover, + 12-16 armor.
-10 to the attack, and 4 DV probably wall soaked. So, Zod is now 14 DP (5 hits?), or 6-8 DP for each if dual wielding ambidextrously, and the base damage will probably be soaked by the wall...if it goes through the barrier at all. 3-5 hits with base soaked is a lot more survivable than 28 dice to the face in the open.

Try to avoid repeatedly using the same firing point, to avoid overwatch and suppressing fires.

Eventually the players will end up out maneuvering and out shooting...but if they're dumb about it, they'll take a lot of slugs in the process.

And dare I mention IEDs? It seems a bit like GM fiat, but if the Ragers have a few days or so and a little yen for some matrix tutors on how to make Home made Explosives, the House Borne IED lives again!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Right, but you can hack and subvert their PANs. Make their triggers non-responsive. Start broadcasting their info. Make a call to the 'Star from their guncams/smartguns. Turn off their getaway car. Detonate any of their Airburst Link grenades while they're still on their belts.

Which any Street Sam who places such things into his PAN deserves. Besides, Camera's cannot make calls, and unfortunately, you cannot disable a Mechanical Trigger. Might work for those pesky Electronic ones though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You must play with some not-so smart Players, if you are using these things against them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I believe any trode set up works on Direct Neural Interface. Where there is DNI, Black IC works. If your running via ar glove or feedback clothing, or even an old turtle rig, your safe, but once your PAN is essentially taking mental commands, your brain is exposed. I believe there's even a semi-largish article on it in unwired (don't have the page at hand - its has a picture of a kid looking like his brain is electrocuting him.) Should have said black out, not black hammer.

As for shoot and run - ganger uses LOS breaks and.or Infil to sneak into firing position. Either on a surprise round or after the PC IP, he shoots, then moves back out of LOS. If the players choose not to pursue, rinse, repeat. occasionally the PCs will get a shot on one, but it will greatly reduce the "2x mooks per IP, 3 IPs per turn, I can gun down 6 mooks per turn."

As will things like rolling out of the way of windows and such after shooting. Blind fire, full cover, + 12-16 armor.
-10 to the attack, and 4 DV probably wall soaked. So, Zod is now 14 DP (5 hits?), or 6-8 DP for each if dual wielding ambidextrously, and the base damage will probably be soaked by the wall...if it goes through the barrier at all. 3-5 hits with base soaked is a lot more survivable than 28 dice to the face in the open.

Try to avoid repeatedly using the same firing point, to avoid overwatch and suppressing fires.

Eventually the players will end up out maneuvering and out shooting...but if they're dumb about it, they'll take a lot of slugs in the process.

And dare I mention IEDs? It seems a bit like GM fiat, but if the Ragers have a few days or so and a little yen for some matrix tutors on how to make Home made Explosives, the House Borne IED lives again!

Does not really work that way, unless the PC's have no more actions. If you have exposed yourself enough to shoot in a pass, you have exposed yourself enough to receive incomming fire in that pass. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[HunterHerne]

Trouble by someone with a high defensive pool? Use dual-wielding rules properly. Dice pool modifications like specialisation and laser sight are added after the split. Someone with Agility 3 and Pistols 2 (Semi auto), can split his pool into 1 and 5 dice, shooting that lasersighted Manhunter with respective pools of 3 and 7. Do this twice and your target's defensive pool will be down considerably on the last shot. Add in a narrow bursting AK and that's a lot of hurting.
Probably not enough to put someone down, or just barely. But it's scary, at least.

this is a good tactic, in my opinion, but it would maybe be better served with something closer to Home ground (when the PC's are raiding a house or HQ, at least.) Also, Laser sights and smart link don't add dice to dual wielded weapons used in the same action.

[Loch]

I believe any trode set up works on Direct Neural Interface. Where there is DNI, Black IC works. If your running via ar glove or feedback clothing, or even an old turtle rig, your safe, but once your PAN is essentially taking mental commands, your brain is exposed. I believe there's even a semi-largish article on it in unwired (don't have the page at hand - its has a picture of a kid looking like his brain is electrocuting him.) Should have said black out, not black hammer.

The bit in Unwired you're thinking of has zero relevant rules text. It's a JackPoint article written to help new script kiddies get online. DNI on its own does not enable Black IC. Only Hotsim VR can do that.

[suoq]

Right, but you can hack and subvert their PANs.

Assumptions required:
1) The main node is either active or it's been found if hidden
2) The main node has been identified as the correct node to attack by the hacker.
3) The main node can be reached either through matrix or mutual signal range
4) The main node has a firewall weak enough that the "script kiddie" can break it. (Note that firewalls are NOT limited by system or response.)

Note that main node may be up the chain further. For example, if Zod's PAN is slaved to someone else's tacnet, then you're going to have to spoof them off the tacnet or hack the tacnet node. (That's my understanding anyway.)

It works great if the GM is just saying what happens. It doesn't work so well if the GM is actually following the rules.

------------

Thanks to those above who covered other points better than I could have.

[suoq]

Only Hotsim VR can do that.

Note: Also Resonance Trodes - Unwired, Pg 148.

Never shake hands with a technomancer unless you're planning to electrocute him.

[Mardrax]

The bit in Unwired you're thinking of has zero relevant rules text. It's a JackPoint article written to help new script kiddies get online. DNI on its own does not enable Black IC. Only Hotsim VR can do that.

You could of course, once you're inside his PAN, turn on the VR. If it's not hotsimmed though, you can't damage him.

Also, Laser sights and smart link don't add dice to dual wielded weapons used in the same action.

I thought that was just Smartlinks? Oh well. Tracer rounds?
The same setup with BF capable weapons. Add tracer rounds, use short burts. And keep the RC up.

[Loch]

I thought that was just Smartlinks? Oh well. Tracer rounds?
The same setup with BF capable weapons. Add tracer rounds, use short burts. And keep the RC up.

I believe tracers only provide benefit on full auto. They can stack with a laser sight though.

[Mardrax]

I believe tracers only provide benefit on full auto. They can stack with a laser sight though.

No, they can however only be used in full auto weapons. Where they provide a +1 for short bursts, +2 for long bursts, and +3 for full bursts.
And dual wielding SMGs is a rather ganger thing to do, and there's the Styr TMP from SR4A as well. Not to mention the Firing Selection Change modification, which is an easily accomplishable mod, at a Threshold of 10 and a Shop required.

[Neraph]

Which any Street Sam who places such things into his PAN deserves. Besides, Camera's cannot make calls, and unfortunately, you cannot disable a Mechanical Trigger. Might work for those pesky Electronic ones though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You must play with some not-so smart Players, if you are using these things against them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No the camera can't, but if it is in the PAN with his commlink (which probably has higher Matrix Attr. so it is "safer" that way) the Commlink can call the PD and send them video.

The smartgun system can also be accessed via wireless link, allowing for the gun to be remotely fired or to block the trigger (in case an opponent gets ahold of it).

Yes you can block the trigger of a smartgun.

Again, looks like I'm using RAW.

Assumptions required:
1) The main node is either active or it's been found if hidden
2) The main node has been identified as the correct node to attack by the hacker.
3) The main node can be reached either through matrix or mutual signal range
4) The main node has a firewall weak enough that the "script kiddie" can break it. (Note that firewalls are NOT limited by system or response.)

This was assumed by me saying "hack." In fact, all of this would neccessarily take place if one were to "hack" something.

[Seriously Mike]

Does not really work that way, unless the PC's have no more actions. If you have exposed yourself enough to shoot in a pass, you have exposed yourself enough to receive incomming fire in that pass. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Not sure about that - there is a specific "Shoot from cover" action, where you pop out, take a quick shot at -1 and pop back behind the cover.
However, grenades aren't out of the question (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[AppliedCheese]

Does not really work that way, unless the PC's have no more actions. If you have exposed yourself enough to shoot in a pass, you have exposed yourself enough to receive incoming fire in that pass. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Which begs a question: are you always exposed at the maximum point of exposure for a full IP? If a PC, on say, Init 15 runs perpendicular across an alley opening on IP 1 beginning and ending completely obscured from the parallel down the alley, does the Init 6 Ganger in the alley get to take a shot on his turn as if he is shooting a running target completely in the open?

What if the PC fires down the alley as he runs across?

What if the PC starts in the alley, then runs around the corner after shooting?

The target would be exposed for the same amount of time. .75 - 3 seconds, depending on the passes per character. Yet unless the ganger was specifically overwatching the alley entry, I think by RAW no shot gets taken on any of them. One of the great advantages of being fast.

So why would NPCs suffer artificial vulnerability just so players can kill them? If they're willing to spend actions going prone, or abandon positions, they should reap the benefits of cover, yes?

[AppliedCheese]

Not sure about that - there is a specific "Shoot from cover" action, where you pop out, take a quick shot at -1 and pop back behind the cover.
However, grenades aren't out of the question (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Is that what that represents? Damn I'd been assuming it was a generic penalty for shooting from behind cover, where it represented the relative difficulties of shooting while hugging the cover, bits of broken glass in the way of the sight picture, limited angles you can traverse the weapon before your own cover blocks you, etc.

[Mardrax]

Not sure about that - there is a specific "Shoot from cover" action, where you pop out, take a quick shot at -1 and pop back behind the cover.
However, grenades aren't out of the question (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

This is the reason why others hold their actions until the popping out part.

[Mayhem_2006]

Despite the GM saying "it's not Zod's players fault", I would say, to a certain extent, yes it is.

The same player builds a combat monster, then is complaining combat is boring because it is too easy, but as soon as a non-combat scenario that his character isn't built for crops up, he flat out says "Well, this is no good, i can 't do anything, i'm going to play a computer game".

Not sure how you are supposed to engage a player with that attitude.