 Firearms and after market add ons., how much is too much? |
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 Apr 2 2004, 03:20 AM
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#1
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375  |
The core rules state that most rifles and most SMGs can have one top mount, one bottom mount and one barrel mount. Makes sense, space wise. So if we go strictly by the core rules, would it be correct to say that if a weapon already has a barrel mount (say, gas vent) then that weapon could not mount an additional barrel mount (say, a suppressor)?
It seems that it is implied by the HK227 and the HK227-S (and the Colt Cobra, etc...) that there is only one slot. Now I'm of the opinion that if (in the above example) the barrel mount "slot" is full, that's that. Unfortunately I seem to be in the minority. The only time I ignore my own rule is the Ingram M20t Smartgun. If I had my way, that thing would not come with the GV. Period. What the hell is gas vent anyway?? And about suppressors: if you have a suppressor, shouldn't that also do some double duty as a gas vent or muzzel brake or whatever? Well I'm at it, pistols can't take barrel mounts, right? So how come everyone seems to have GV on his/her Pred? Do we assume that you can have a Low Light and Thermo mag scope all in one and you could switch between the two with a button? Techology advancing to the point where you can place both systems in one's eyes and mental toggle between the two. Would you have a cost multiplier for this or just add up the prices? Is the Under Barrel Weight actually look more like the extended barrels we see in films such as "Underworld"? BTW, I think Rayguns Picanty (sp?) Railmounts are brilliant. The reason I'm going off about all this is that I often see (and I am guilty of it all too often as well) a weapon that has the GV and suppressor. I guess the counter arguement ( and what I use to rationalize to myself) is that gas vent is actually done "to the barrel" whereas a suppressor is atatched to "the end of the barrel." Thoughts? |
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Apr 2 2004, 03:27 AM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-July 03 Member No.: 4,963 |
I've never seen someone else declare that a gun that comes with a mod built in still has a free barrel slot. If it has a suppressor on the barrel, it can't have gas vents. If it has a gas vent on the barrel, it can't have a suppressor.
1. Yes they can. Pg. 276 under the Pistols heading. 2. Having a GV in a pred is stupid if you have Cannon Companion available, but if you don't, there aren't many other ways to get two shots off in a round with no recoil with a pistol.
1. Yes. 2. You add up the prices. There is no cost multiplier. This is explicitly stated on pg 280 under imaging scopes, last sentence of the page. |
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Apr 2 2004, 03:31 AM
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#3
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
You've never seen a Smartgun w/ a suppressor? In the old SSC, its pictured w/ one. Of course its also pictured with an external smartlink....
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Apr 2 2004, 03:34 AM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-July 03 Member No.: 4,963 |
No, I haven't ever seen someone try to mount a suppressor on a Smartgun. You have one barrel mount. The gun description says there is something already on the barrel, a gas vent II. So no, you can't put one on the barrel.
Note that GMs often rule that you can swap out barrels, so you can have the Gas Vent barrel you attach when you expect violence and one without a gas vent that you slap a suppressor/silencer on. |
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Apr 2 2004, 03:42 AM
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#5
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Really? There's been at least two characters placed on the board in the last 3 months that do exactly that. Well, I'm only 100% sure about 1 but I'd say it happens more often than not around here. |
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Apr 2 2004, 03:50 AM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-July 03 Member No.: 4,963 |
I'm looking at the Medic right now, I'm not sure about the rather cryptic notation he uses for his equipment. He's bought both a Gas Vent IV and a suppressor, my guess is that he designed the character on the assumption that he can switch out barrels. |
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Apr 2 2004, 03:59 AM
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#7
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
I don't want to turn this into a "Can to--Can not" thing but I've never heard of the barrel switching thing....and in my arrogance am going to assume that the Medic was not designed with the barrel switching thing in mind.
If I'm wrong, so be it. It wouldn't be the first time :D On a different note, thank you for clearing up the pistol thing and the scope thing. :) |
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Apr 2 2004, 04:13 AM
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Ot not. That's exactly what the extended barrel on the MAC series of SMG's look like, and that's not a supressor. Methinks you may assume too much.
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Apr 2 2004, 04:16 AM
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#9
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Got a pic?? |
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Apr 2 2004, 04:18 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 264 Joined: 26-March 04 From: Houston Member No.: 6,197 |
Exactly. The gas venting keeps the barrel from sporting the necessary threading or mounts to support a suppressor. As for the suppressor functioning as a gas vent, Raygun's section on suppressors states that even when the suppressor vents gasses fired, it usually does so after the gas knocks around a bit inside the suppressor to cool itself (so it doesn't 'crack' the air as it escapes). Gas vents vent the fired gasses along with the bullet to fight muzzle kick-up, suppressors don't do it in time to counteract this. Or that's my take on it anyway. |
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Apr 2 2004, 04:32 AM
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#11
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yeah. check the SSC. (not being facetious, that really is what they look like).
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Apr 2 2004, 04:37 AM
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#12
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
So are you saying that its a barrel extension or a suppressor?
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Apr 2 2004, 04:37 AM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 400 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 825 |
Exactly. The two work in completely opposite ways. The function of one precludes the function of the other. |
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Apr 2 2004, 04:38 AM
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#14
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Sure, I got pics :D
From this site, about halfway down, left column. incidentally yes, it does look just like a supressor, but you cant assume one way or the other. |
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Apr 2 2004, 04:42 AM
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#15
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Are there any game advantages to such a device?
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Apr 2 2004, 04:49 AM
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#16
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
hm. what's pictured there looks like a 2-stage SIONICS style suppressor, rather than a simple shrouded barrel extension.
edit: matter of fact, it is. the MAC-10 was coupled with the SIONICS suppressor, as detailed here. |
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Apr 2 2004, 05:28 AM
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#17
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
In the real world, there are a few ways to muzzle-mount devices. With some devices, for example a muzzle brake (called a Gas Vent in Shadowrun vernacular), you can actually make the device part of the barrel itself, as a single piece, by machining said muzzle brake into the end of the barrel itself. In that case, it really isn't "mounted", it's actually part of the barrel. Usually things that are done in this manner are designed so that other devices, such as a suppressor, can't be mounted to the muzzle. However, there's nothing saying that you can't have both. In these cases, the muzzle brake resides inside of the suppressor while the suppressor is attached. Otherwise, you'd get no effect from the suppressor as all the gases would vent into the atmosphere at high pressure before they got to the suppressor, thus making that undesirable BANG! The other thing that is done is to thread the end of the barrel and mount anything you want to that thread. You can detach the device and attach another any time you want. Another thing that is commonly done is that the barrel is threaded and special combination gas vent/suppressor mount device is attached to that thread, then a suppressor can be mounted to the gas vent/suppressor mount. But as far as SR's rules are concerned, it states somewhere in the BBB that once a gas vent is installed, it cannot be removed. I don't have any SR books here at the moment to quote page numbers, unfortunately.
A gas vent is a device that catches and redirects the propellant gases used to push the bullet from the gun (in the form of muzzle blast) so that its energy is used to either compensate for the upward motion of the barrel (usually called a compensator IRL) or to push the weapon away from the shooter's shoulder in order to slow down the rearward motion of the firearm, reducing felt recoil (usually called muzzle brake IRL). Here's a picture of a muzzle brake. Here's a link to Glock's compensated pistols.
Realistically speaking, yes. Sound suppressors and silencers have the secondary effect of reducing recoil by lowering gas pressure, volume, and velocity, as well as adding some mass to the firearm. But by canon rules, you don't get that benefit. As a general rule, I give silencers a -1 recoil modifier while sound suppressors get a -3 recoil modifier.
Making a realistic excuse for that, I'd say that that would qualify as a machined-in compensator without a threaded barrel mount, which makes plenty of sense. Like the above Glock pistol.
I wish I could take credit for the concept, but I can't. They are handy. :)
You shouldn't get the benefits from both at the same time unless you decide to assume that sound suppressors reduce recoil on their own, and that you can mount a suppressor over an existing gas vent (which provides its benefits when the suppressor is removed). |
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Apr 2 2004, 07:41 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 216 Joined: 27-January 04 Member No.: 6,025 |
You Sir are the first person I've meet that knows more about firearms than me :eek:
/said as budwiser narator/ I salute you Raygun 8) :notworthy: :evil: :proof: :read: |
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Apr 2 2004, 10:25 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 400 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 825 |
<voiceclass=mulletheadedjinglesinger>
"Mr Knows-Lots-About-Shooty-Things Poster!" </voiceclass> |
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Apr 2 2004, 02:15 PM
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#20
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Thanks all! :)
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Apr 3 2004, 02:15 PM
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#21
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Check out the link here.
Look at the tac-light/laser combo. (Laser Illuminator) While SR's ruling is nice and simple, you'd be amazed at the amount of crap you can slap over, under and even to the side of a barrel. Frag, for that matter, check out this. You've got a foregrip, laser sight, tac light and low-light all on the same gun. -Siege |
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Apr 3 2004, 04:29 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
um...yeah. Raygun is THE guru for firearms on Dumpshock. In fact, this entire query could've been answered quickly with a link to Rayguns site (which is in his signature but wasn't posted.) Since he didn't post his site link. All you need for SR firearms designing. http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/ |
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Apr 3 2004, 07:14 PM
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Heh, actually he was. Thus the gunsmithing shop and the SMG B/R 4 chip. I was thinking that he would could swap out the sound suppressor or gas vent system as needed, and had already swapped out the builtin GV II with the GV IV that he bought. Later on I planned on him doing some other mods like a personalized grip and such when he got the time. But maybe that's not all actually possible? I just don't know anymore. |
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Apr 3 2004, 07:28 PM
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#24
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
I'm surprised no one has yet linked to that photo of the gun with ridiculous numbers of scopes, lights, lasers, rubber chickens, etc. hanging off of it.
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Apr 3 2004, 08:25 PM
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#25
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,156 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Fresno, CalFree Member No.: 4,252 |
I think of guns with underbarrel weights as looking like the USP Match. Although, how would the Predator look, when the guns its based on has an underbarrel weight anyway?
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