Question for invisibility Options

[Machiavelli]

Hi Folks,

i was wondering how exactly invisibility works when it comes to dodging. If you are behind cover, the attacker gets dices subtracted AND you get benefit dice for your dodge-test. Is it the same way if somebody shoots at you while you are non-visible? Does he get -6 dice on his attack roll (plus using intuition instead of agility) AND you get +6 dice for your dodging?

If so, which rule says it and where is the reference in the books?

[Makki]

cover: attacker gets malus (SR4) OR defender gets bonus (SR4A)
invisible: attacker gets malus. cover rules only if you actually have cover, which can be in addition to your invisibility

[Machiavelli]

Cover: are you really sure? The GM told us in one of the last sessions that he re-read the rules and found out that cover is handled the way i decribed it. I just want to be absolutely sure. This is mainly an advantage for us players most of the time, so i am not going to tell him that he might be wrong.^^

[Aerospider]

Cover: are you really sure? The GM told us in one of the last sessions that he re-read the rules and found out that cover is handled the way i decribed it. I just want to be absolutely sure. This is mainly an advantage for us players most of the time, so i am not going to tell him that he might be wrong.^^

Makki got it right – in SR4A the target gets a bonus to his defence rolls and this is a separate thing to the penalty to the attacker's roll for 'blind fire'.

Where does it say you use Intuition instead of Agility for shooting at an invisible target?

[Seriously Mike]

Where does it say you use Intuition instead of Agility for shooting at an invisible target?

SR4, p.141 - while using blind-fire, you use Intuition in place of Agility.

[Machiavelli]

Aehm...tricky question. I don´t have the books at hand, but it might be located at the description of physical illusion spells. If you fail to defend against the illusion, but realized that there is an invis. enemy, you can still shoot but you have to guess where he might be, therfore intuition instead of agility.

.....aaaah, Mike ninja´d me.^^

[Mardrax]

Cover does not penalize the attacker. See page 152 of SR4A for a listing of what does.
Invisibility will force the Blind Fire rules onto the attacker, which means he gets a -6 to his roll, and he rolls Intuition instead of Agility with his Firearms skill.
Taking cover behind an opaque barrier will have the same effects, wether or not actually invisible. As long as the attacker can't directly see you, he's firing blind.

Edit: ninja'd something bad. Refresh that page before posting Mard.

[bustedkarma]

SR4A (Pg 150)
Attacker Firing From Cover

There *can* be a negative modifier for the attacker, depending on quality of cover he is using.

[Aerospider]

SR4, p.141 - while using blind-fire, you use Intuition in place of Agility.

Thanks. Kinda makes sense.

My new project - build a character who shoots better with his eyes closed!

[Yerameyahu]

That's the attacker's own cover, not the target's cover, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Aerospider]

That's the attacker's own cover, not the target's cover, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Lol

[bustedkarma]

Forgive me, it's early.

[Mardrax]

Thanks. Kinda makes sense.

My new project - build a character who shoots better with his eyes closed!

I'm guessing most mages get there. Especially note MysAds with Heightened Concentration and Increase Attribute (Intuition).

[Udoshi]

Thanks. Kinda makes sense.

My new project - build a character who shoots better with his eyes closed!

This actually came up the other day when I was discussing shadowrun rules with a friend. Its possible to make the intuition-only samurai, actaully!

Like most really wrong things, it comes from War!

But, basically, it goes like this:
Adepts have the capability to reduce blindfighting penalties some(motion sense)
Martial arts can help reducing blindfighting penalties too(maneuver, ninjutsu), and gun-fu gives you an excuse it with ranged attacks
So you can reduce your penalty from -6 to next to nothing, but still roll Intuition to attack.

Then you add Mind over Matter into the mix. Guess what Intuition substitutes for? Reaction.
This lets you put both your attack rolls and defense rolls on one stat. Nice! Goodbye, MAD

Unfortunately, adding + Intuition-linked dice pool modifiers doesn't work, because while you're rolling Int+Guns, the various firearm skills are still agility linked.

[Mardrax]

Its possible to make the intuition-only samurai, actaully!

Have him wear a helmet like Luke wears during his training on the Falcon.

Also, does a Smartlink work when blind?

[mmmkay]

This actually came up the other day when I was discussing shadowrun rules with a friend. Its possible to make the intuition-only samurai, actaully!

You really do mean samurai because the blind fighting maneuver only applies to melee, motion sense only works within magic meters, and blind fire only works if you can guesstimate the location of the target.

Not sure what kinda gun-fu would allow you to bypass those limitations unless you are using your guns as clubs.

Unfortunately, adding + Intuition-linked dice pool modifiers doesn't work, because while you're rolling Int+Guns, the various firearm skills are still agility linked.

I'm not sure attribute-linking has ever been defined in the books. Presumably those geneware enhancements would apply to skills that are linked to the appropriate attribute in the test, unless attribute-linked has been defined more carefully.

[Yerameyahu]

Assuming it *does* work is the less likely, more 'hopeful' option, though.

I know I've seen this kind of blind/Intuition character built here before. Interesting, though I'd never want to. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Udoshi]

You really do mean samurai because the blind fighting maneuver only applies to melee, motion sense only works within magic meters, and blind fire only works if you can guesstimate the location of the target.

Not sure what kinda gun-fu would allow you to bypass those limitations unless you are using your guns as clubs.



I'm not sure attribute-linking has ever been defined in the books. Presumably those geneware enhancements would apply to skills that are linked to the appropriate attribute in the test, unless attribute-linked has been defined more carefully.

Its true - more of a zatoichi build, though it would work for some closer ranged firearms. As always, adept centering can make up the difference when you need to use ranged attacks

The main benefit of firefight isn't in its mechanical bonuses: Rather, its a solid justification to combine martial arts maneuvers with ranged attacks(this is the entire style's gimmick). The maneuvers section has a clause about allowing them to be used with any other options in the same action phase(this makes adept nerve strike and disorient particularly vicious, for example).
Blind fight is in the minority of maneuvers that specifically have a melee only bonus.
You can pretty easily use firefight and a pistol to make a Texas Sheriff steriotype that can pull off typical movie(or even cartoon tricks), like shooting people's feet to make them dance(herding), guns out of their hand(break weapon), or dodging into your second shot(set up), or iajutsu quickdrawing dynamite.

[HunterHerne]

This actually came up the other day when I was discussing shadowrun rules with a friend. Its possible to make the intuition-only samurai, actaully!

Like most really wrong things, it comes from War!

But, basically, it goes like this:
Adepts have the capability to reduce blindfighting penalties some(motion sense)
Martial arts can help reducing blindfighting penalties too(maneuver, ninjutsu), and gun-fu gives you an excuse it with ranged attacks
So you can reduce your penalty from -6 to next to nothing, but still roll Intuition to attack.

Then you add Mind over Matter into the mix. Guess what Intuition substitutes for? Reaction.
This lets you put both your attack rolls and defense rolls on one stat. Nice! Goodbye, MAD

Unfortunately, adding + Intuition-linked dice pool modifiers doesn't work, because while you're rolling Int+Guns, the various firearm skills are still agility linked.

I did this before War! came out. It wasn't exactly hidden. though I didn't take it to the extreme, I used it on a Mysad Wolf Shapeshifter who would use a darkness spell to invoke as many penalties as possible, offset by his adept and Martial arts. He would (in theory) be the only one able to hit anything. In practice, he got thrown off a rafter and spent the rest of the fight healing.

[Mardrax]

You really do mean samurai because the blind fighting maneuver only applies to melee, motion sense only works within magic meters, and blind fire only works if you can guesstimate the location of the target.

Extended range Detect Life. Or Detect Enemy even.

[mmmkay]

Extended range Detect Life. Or Detect Enemy even.

That is an interesting thought, but for some reason knowing where your enemies are does not provide any bonuses to shooting them.

[Mardrax]

It however gives you plenty excuse to guesstimate their position for blindfire. Through walls and floors even.