Spirit Remote Services, Binding why? Options

[DamienKnight]

My group has not used spirits much in 4th edition, past an occaisional POssess him and fight those guys, or to perform a search or magical guard service.

One of my keener players recently made a spirit focused mage and really showed us what Spirits can do. He knew next to nothing about spirits when we started the session, and just asked questions and figured things out...

He used spirits for sustaining spells, for magical guard, for searching, for assensing, and of course combat. He refused to go in person, but when our interrogation of a target was going poorly, he ordered a character to give the target Little Smoke to force them to go astral, used his 8 watcher spirits and himself to hold the projected target in place, then used mind probe (because the target was astral, his projected form could cast it on the targets now astral form). We were really impressed over all.

But a question arose about remote services. My old group always played with the understanding that a summoned spirit can be sent on a remote service, then all services are lost but you can summon a new spirit while the old one is completing his task. When a mage summons with little effort and has 8 charisma, he quickly ends up with 8 spirits running around... 3 for magical guard, one for movement, one running a search, two for conceal and a last for combat. Wowzer! At one point I said, 'Why did they hire my adept for this run, why doesnt he just send his damn spirits in?'

So the question is, without doing any binding, how many spirits can you have out? In what situation can you have multiple spirits out, when none are bound (only summoned).

A magician may only have one unbound spirit summoned at any
given time, and no more bound spirits than her Charisma attribute.
Spirits on remote service and on standby count toward this total.

Do they count toward the bound spirits total, or the summon spirits total (meaning if you have a spirit on a remote task, it still counts as your only UNBOUND spirit allowed)?

[Irion]

The spirit counts towards the unbound limit. (I had this question once too)

[Aria]

Really? I thought you could only send a bound spirit on a remote service? Surely it counts against the limit of bound spirits?!?

Yes, spirits are great (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ...now I just need more drain resistance to summon bigger monstrosities (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Here is the Relevant Text in SR4A...

Remote Services: Spirits can also be commanded to undertake a remote service, allowing it to leave the summoner's immediate area. Remote services forfeit any other services the spirit might owe. The magician sends the spirit off to perform a particular task (or set of tasks, if more than one service is owed), which the spirit will single-mindedly pursue until it completes the task(s), it is destroyed, or its time of service ends (at sunrise or sunset). A spirit can perform a remote service in either astral or physical form, and may switch between the two as needed. Once a spirit has completed a remote service, it is technically released (unless it is a bound spirit). Spirits on remote service continue to count against the limit of summoned spirits until their remote service is completed.

Your Spirit guy is doing it wrong. If you want more than 1 Remote Service at a time, you must use a Bound Spirit to obtain them.

Remote Services can be performed by Both Unbound and Bound Spirits.

[Yerameyahu]

I don't think you can 'hold' anyone Astrally.

Also: Angel Summoner!

[DamienKnight]

Here is the Relevant Text in SR4A...
Your Spirit guy is doing it wrong. If you want more than 1 Remote Service at a time, you must use a Bound Spirit to obtain them.
Remote Services can be performed by Both Unbound and Bound Spirits.

So without binding, if he summons a spirit and sends it on a remote task, he cannot summon another spirit until that other spirit has completed his task, or has been otherwise relieved of its task and set free... correct?

I don't think you can 'hold' anyone Astrally.
Also: Angel Summoner!

What would make you think that?

[Yerameyahu]

What would make you think you can? Even if it's possible, Watchers are wet Kleenex.

As a side note, it depends on whether Little Smoke makes you project or just perceive, and I can't recall. It's projection that I'm commenting on, anyway. Obviously, perception would mean you could just hold in the physical.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So without binding, if he summons a spirit and sends it on a remote task, he cannot summon another spirit until that other spirit has completed his task, or has been otherwise relieved of its task and set free... correct?

Correct. He still has the link to his original summoned spirit, until its task is completed.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What would make you think you can? Even if it's possible, Watchers are wet Kleenex.

As a side note, it depends on whether Little Smoke makes you project or just perceive, and I can't recall. It's projection that I'm commenting on, anyway. Obviously, perception would mean you could just hold in the physical.

I Think he is referring to Shade (which forces Astral Projection), not Little Smoke. Little Smoke grants the Critter Powers of Confusion and Concealment.

[Yerameyahu]

Ah, well I assumed it was like that. Has anyone else ever heard of astral grappling? I had the impression that everything except some wards were immaterial. I've never heard any rules or anything suggesting you could block or hold people. :/

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ah, well I assumed it was like that. Has anyone else ever heard of astral grappling? I had the impression that everything except some wards were immaterial. I've never heard any rules or anything suggesting you could block or hold people. :/

Well. You can attack and do damage to an astral form. If you go the logical route, you should also be able to grapple. That being said, I have never heard of such a thing, or seen it in print anywhere.

[Yerameyahu]

See, I'm not even sure it logically follows. You can hurt them, but that's just magic (even using claws). I can conceive of combat functioning without 'collision detection' for movement.

[DamienKnight]

Astral forms all have the same max speed (6000 kph). They can physically interact with objects (hit walls, hit each other). Its not a grapple test (though I would probably allow that as a GM) but an Intercept test. You try to go somewhere and they get in your way. You SHALL NOT PASS. At least not until you take a moment to whoop my ass.

The test requires that the target takes damage, so watcher spirits are helpful (friends in melee, i believe capped at +4) but unlikely to succeed on their own (easy to resist 1 damage).

See SR4a p 161 for Interception rules.

I agree that the rules do not directly address it, so inferring interception is allowed is not RAW, but is a logical conclusion.

[Yerameyahu]

I'm not sure it's even correct that "they physically interact with objects". We just know they can damage each other, by some means. For some reason, I had the thought that astral forms *could* move through each other, and that things like size and shape were pretty meaningless, so that's coloring my position. I'll have to do some research.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm not sure it's even correct that "they physically interact with objects". We just know they can damage each other, by some means. For some reason, I had the thought that astral forms *could* move through each other, and that things like size and shape were pretty meaningless, so that's coloring my position. I'll have to do some research.

Yeah, they do not actually hit "walls", they can pass through solid objects, and even pass through the ground, if they like (though it is difficult). They can interact with each other to a degree, at least enough to hurt each other. However, Intercepting an opponent is not the same as grappling them. *shrug*

[Hound]

if you can project some kind of magical force to hurt people, who's to say you couldn't project some to hold them in? Basically, maybe thinking of grappling in the general sense (literally laying hands on someone and hold them down) is not quite correct, but perhaps there is something that works totally differently, but comes out the same mechanically. IMO, would be up to the GM.

[Yerameyahu]

As I said: who's to say you *can*? My point is just that I've never heard of astral blocking/grappling, and I've been around. Astral combat might be entirely spiritual; I don't know.

[Neraph]

if you can project some kind of magical force to hurt people, who's to say you couldn't project some to hold them in? Basically, maybe thinking of grappling in the general sense (literally laying hands on someone and hold them down) is not quite correct, but perhaps there is something that works totally differently, but comes out the same mechanically. IMO, would be up to the GM.

Mana Barrier. It's spherical.

[HunterHerne]

SM 112, Astral forms

Astral Forms
Astral forms are active and substantial presences on the
astral plane. Projecting magicians and spirits are free-roaming
astral forms, but the astral forms of dual-natured beings (including
those using astral perception) are tied to their physical
world bodies. Astral forms are even brighter in the astral plane
than auras, but most importantly, they are solid. An astral form
cannot pass through another astral form.

[LurkerOutThere]

Also remember that some actions, off the top of my head spell sustaining, require the spirit to be bound, not just summoned.

[HunterHerne]

Also remember that some actions, off the top of my head spell sustaining, require the spirit to be bound, not just summoned.

This is true. As does aid Sorcery. Both of these are worth binding in my opinion, especially for less focused casters, if the caster chooses a non-spirit of man tradition.

[Yerameyahu]

Thanks HunterHerne. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Now we just also have to derive the complete Newtonion physics of the astral. Is there force, mass, etc.? I think I'm more okay with Grappling than just 'standing around the guy with Watchers'; there should certainly be some rolls. It's possible the physical melee rules could serve, though I still don't think any number of Watchers should give any bonus.

[HunterHerne]

Thanks HunterHerne. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Now we just also have to derive the complete Newtonion physics of the astral. Is there force, mass, etc.? I think I'm more okay with Grappling than just 'standing around the guy with Watchers'; there should certainly be some rolls. It's possible the physical melee rules could serve, though I still don't think any number of Watchers should give any bonus.

Personally, I say just use grapple rules as usual, using the astral attributes/skills. Will+Astral combat vs. whatever means the target has, Charisma(or strength for percievers/dual natured)+net hits (Willpower/body). If the strength+net hits is greater, the opponent is grappled and immobolized. To break out, the defender must resist with a Charisma/strength test to reduce the total net hits to 0. This is the best way it seems to make sense.

That said, I don't know if I agree whole heartedly with Astral Combat + willpower. Logic is supposed to substitute for agility on the astral, and that consistancy would make sense to me (as well as Intuition, which substitutes for reaction, on the defense test).

[pbangarth]

That said, I don't know if I agree whole heartedly with Astral Combat + willpower. Logic is supposed to substitute for agility on the astral, and that consistancy would make sense to me (as well as Intuition, which substitutes for reaction, on the defense test).

Yeah, this inconsistency has always bothered me, too.

Years ago I DMed a group (all male) who thought they knew everything about how to be ace shadowrunners. I didn't educate them as it was fun running circles around their arrogance. I figured they would eventually learn from experience. A (female) newbie to SR but not to role playing joined the group as a shaman (earlier version of SR) and within a couple of sessions proceeded to teach the boys how magic and spirits really work. She bothered to read the rules and think about them creatively.

A) They were blown away with the possibilities and finally learned.

B) They got jealous and made her life difficult. She and I both dumped the group shortly thereafter.