[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Bad dice rolls can kill any practical example. Admittedly, Shadowrun has never done a good job of modeling derringers: small, high powered, low ammo weapons, like an over-under twin-barrel. SR3 and SR4.5 are no exception. But even so, it does not work in SR4.5 either, and on paper, SR3 actually is slightly deadlier in this regard.

But Paper is not Actual Play.

Sorry, But I have to disagree with you here. I NEVER killed anyone with a Light Pistol or Holdout in SR3. EVER (and boy did I try). It is a constant thing in SR4. Hell, I have killed more people in SR4 with a Light Pistol, than I did in SR3 wiuuth a Heavy. Played both through their entire run. It may be Anecdotal, but it is a fact. Soaking 2's is a Far cry from Soaking 5's. In SR3, Soaking 2's was a lot more common for a Non-Heavy Pistol sized weapon than Soaking 5's was.

[Stahlseele]

yeah, but if somebody got the hold out up to deadly damage and you only had 4 body to roll resistance, you did take a medium damage no matter what . .

[Seerow]

Wait SR3 only reduced one box per success?


We may have been playing wrong when I played SR3, I seem to remember staging damage down working the same as staging it up. So if the holdout gets 3 successes to stage up to deadly, it only takes 3 successes to stage the damage back down to light.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Wait SR3 only reduced one box per success?


We may have been playing wrong when I played SR3, I seem to remember staging damage down working the same as staging it up. So if the holdout gets 3 successes to stage up to deadly, it only takes 3 successes to stage the damage back down to light.

Staging worked on Levels. You did not need Successes to stage Boxes, You staged Levels (Deadly/Serious/Moderate/Light/None). Exactly. Except in SR2/3, it was 2 Successes per Level. Up or Down.

[Stahlseele]

No no no . .
the SR3 Damage system worked COMPLETELY different from SR4!
You got Weapons, light Pistol did 6 Light Physical damage.
So your target number was 6 to resist the damage.
And you needed 2 hits to take NO damage at all from the gun.
Every 2 hits on the shooters side staged Damage up by one LEVEL.
So from 6L it goes to 6M, then to 6S and to 6D damage.
To go from light to deadly damage you need 6 hits.
To stage down Deadly to nothing you need 8 hits.
Armor DIRECTLY LOWERS DAMAGE TAKEN.
So with Armor 4 worn, you would not need to roll 6's to get a hit, but 2's.
So you would not have to roll 8x6 but 8x2. Much easier.
But if you only HAVE 4 Dice to roll, then you STILL take Medium Damage.
Which is 3 Boxes.
Light is 1 Box.
Serious is 6 Boxes.
Deadly is 9 Boxes.
And none of this nonsense of Damage not exceeding armor going into stun instead either . .
If you want stun damage, you use specifically stun damage weapons.
And even then you may send your target into overflow physical damage.
Now the HEAVY Pistol, starts out with 9 MEDIUM Damage.
So without Armor, you would need to roll four 9's to stage down to nothing. On D6, this is somewhat more improbable.
And so on.

[tete]

You've got to be kidding me. I mean, sure, they also use dice, but the rulesets were very different. Even within Magic, there were completely different rules for how hermetic vs. shamanic summoning worked.

Your mistaking mechanics with fluff. The mechanics between the hermetic and the shaman were nearly identical, even the spirits and elementals are nearly the same stat wise, but the fluff was drastically different between the two.

But Paper is not Actual Play.

Sorry, But I have to disagree with you here. I NEVER killed anyone with a Light Pistol or Holdout in SR3. EVER (and boy did I try). It is a constant thing in SR4. Hell, I have killed more people in SR4 with a Light Pistol, than I did in SR3 wiuuth a Heavy. Played both through their entire run. It may be Anecdotal, but it is a fact. Soaking 2's is a Far cry from Soaking 5's. In SR3, Soaking 2's was a lot more common for a Non-Heavy Pistol sized weapon than Soaking 5's was.

High armor values were way more important in 3e. A skilled SR3 Shadowrunner was fine with a hold out vs an unarmored opponent (which I did often). Armor is much more swingy now.

The main difference between SR4 & 3 besides layout/editing is that in 3e having a low number was worse and having a high number was better because most things worked on TN and # of Successes. 4e works of a linear progression so low stats are not as bad and high stats are not as good. Honestly the reason 4e was so much easier for new players was the cheat sheets. If 3e had free cheat sheets the new rules would not have felt so much better for new players.

[Stahlseele]

Uhm . . actually, the Magical Systems were different by Crunch too, not just by fluff . .
Shamans could summon spirits on the fly, with one complex action, but could not bind them.
And they lost them every sun up/down and every time they left the building/street or fell into a river or something like that . .
Hermetics could summon and bind Elementals with money and Karma, but they only vanished when they had done their due..

Also, yes, higher Armor was MUCH better in SR3. But also hard to accomplish.
Starting Character with 8 points of Armor for Ballistic was basically maxed out.
But this also meant that with a Body of 9, he could pretty reliably take a shotgun blast to the face and barely cough . .

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No no no . .
the SR3 Damage system worked COMPLETELY different from SR4!
You got Weapons, light Pistol did 6 Light Physical damage.
So your target number was 6 to resist the damage.
And you needed 2 hits to take NO damage at all from the gun.
Every 2 hits on the shooters side staged Damage up by one LEVEL.
So from 6L it goes to 6M, then to 6S and to 6D damage.
To go from light to deadly damage you need 6 hits.
To stage down Deadly to nothing you need 8 hits.
Armor DIRECTLY LOWERS DAMAGE TAKEN.
So with Armor 4 worn, you would not need to roll 6's to get a hit, but 2's.
So you would not have to roll 8x6 but 8x2. Much easier.
But if you only HAVE 4 Dice to roll, then you STILL take Medium Damage.
Which is 3 Boxes.
Light is 1 Box.
Serious is 6 Boxes.
Deadly is 9 Boxes.
And none of this nonsense of Damage not exceeding armor going into stun instead either . .
If you want stun damage, you use specifically stun damage weapons.
And even then you may send your target into overflow physical damage.
Now the HEAVY Pistol, starts out with 9 MEDIUM Damage.
So without Armor, you would need to roll four 9's to stage down to nothing. On D6, this is somewhat more improbable.
And so on.

Yes, I know, But when wearing any amount of Typical Armor, that Target number for that Light Pistol is reduced. Typically, that number became a 2. So, 2's in SR3, and 5's in SR4. Pretty simple really. So, in actual Play, No one ever took damage from the Light Pistol in SR3. Many Deaths have resulted from a Light Pistol in SR4, at least at our table. Which was my point. This is why I am glad for the removal of staging as it functioned in SR3. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Yah, i should have quoted the other guy, i wasn't really talking to you . . i KNOW you know this stuff Hooker ^^

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yah, i should have quoted the other guy, i wasn't really talking to you . . i KNOW you know this stuff Hooker ^^

Hooker Huh... Man, I hated the Show... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

well, shows you at least have a modicum of taste then ^^
also, good associative skills/deduction.

[tete]

Uhm . . actually, the Magical Systems were different by Crunch too, not just by fluff . .
Shamans could summon spirits on the fly, with one complex action, but could not bind them.
And they lost them every sun up/down and every time they left the building/street or fell into a river or something like that . .
Hermetics could summon and bind Elementals with money and Karma, but they only vanished when they had done their due..

I still see the systems as mostly the same, when you loose your summoned thingy is fluff. Though yes, how/when you conjure them is different but its the same roll and IIRC Air Elemental and Air Spirit has the same stats

[Stahlseele]

Difference, again, that, technically, a shaman can't have an air spirit inside of a building . . only a hearth spirit . .
While the Hermetic can have all 4 elementals everywhere all the time, no questions asked . .

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

well, shows you at least have a modicum of taste then ^^
also, good associative skills/deduction.

Heh... Thanks... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Seerow]

Stahl: The way you described it is basically how I thought it worked, it was this post that confused me:

Actually, you've got it backwards. Because of the way damage scales in SR3, if you score 6 successes with a light pistol, you would deal 10 boxes of damage. Even with a ton of armor, you were likely to be hurt, since armor only reduced the TN of the damage value. If you didn't have 10 dice to soak with, you were guaranteed to take damage. Assuming a body of 3, if you scored all successes, you'd still take 7 damage. Assuming no successes. you're out.

Apparently this was just describing the process wrong.

[Stahlseele]

Yes and no.
Deadly Damage is 10 Boxes of Damage on your Track.
Basically, complete Track filled at once.
But the TN to resist is still 6, if you do not wear any armor.
Because the actual Power of the Pistol was just 6.
Technically, if you had cheaty dice, you could get along with every kind of damage with just 8 dice for resistance.
Because, technically, you only need to roll 8x(Power of Damage) to resist ANY AND ALL DAMAGE.
So, even if you had 30D damage to resist, you could, in theory, do it with 8 dice . .
But you have to roll five 6's on every last single die again and again. The odds are staggering. And against you.
But it COULD HAPPEN!
This only changes when the Damage Code STARTS at Deadly and THEN the other guy gets net Hits.
Because you need to Reduce Net Hits first, before you can start reducing Damage.

[KeyMasterOfGozer]

I still see the systems as mostly the same, when you loose your summoned thingy is fluff. Though yes, how/when you conjure them is different but its the same roll and IIRC Air Elemental and Air Spirit has the same stats

Well, as Stalseele said, there is more to the mechanics of the game than just the dice roll itself. You could make an argument that SR3 is exactly the same as SR4 because they both ask you to roll 6-sided dice pool to gain successes.

[Cheops]

My annecdotal evidence is that I have killed several PCs with light pistols, usually flechette to the head, over the course of my years so we can't come to an agreement on that.

My beef with lack of staging is that all the guns feel the same now. Before when a guy pulled out a light pistol and we were armored it was like "no problem guys." He pulls out the medium pistol or the smgs and we start to sweat. When the assault rifles and bigger came out then we knew that it was going to be a brutal fight. With SR4 there is only like 1-2 box difference between each of these classes of guns so seeing a light pistol is as intimidating as seeing a machine gun -- which feels very weird to me. YMMV.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My beef with lack of staging is that all the guns feel the same now. Before when a guy pulled out a light pistol and we were armored it was like "no problem guys." He pulls out the medium pistol or the smgs and we start to sweat. When the assault rifles and bigger came out then we knew that it was going to be a brutal fight. With SR4 there is only like 1-2 box difference between each of these classes of guns so seeing a light pistol is as intimidating as seeing a machine gun -- which feels very weird to me. YMMV.

I'm sorry, but I tend to have a vastly different reaction to seeing a Light Pistol as opposed to a Machine Gun. If you are thinking about Boxes of Damage when they come into play, then maybe that is the real issue here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Seerow]

My annecdotal evidence is that I have killed several PCs with light pistols, usually flechette to the head, over the course of my years so we can't come to an agreement on that.

My beef with lack of staging is that all the guns feel the same now. Before when a guy pulled out a light pistol and we were armored it was like "no problem guys." He pulls out the medium pistol or the smgs and we start to sweat. When the assault rifles and bigger came out then we knew that it was going to be a brutal fight. With SR4 there is only like 1-2 box difference between each of these classes of guns so seeing a light pistol is as intimidating as seeing a machine gun -- which feels very weird to me. YMMV.

Except the automatics have a massive advantage: Burstfire/full auto. When a light pistol comes out, I know I might eventually die, but chances are I'll survive a few hits. If an assault rifle, machine gun, or minigun comes out, suddenly I'm keenly aware that a single net success will likely drop me.


Now the differences between a light pistol and heavy pistol, or SMG and HMG aren't as big, but they are there.

[Yerameyahu]

Ah, but flechette to the head is a big difference. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think you're right that the combination of inflated DPs and +net hits to DV makes the individual guns *slightly* (not entirely) unimportant.

But presumably your pistol is modded for BF/FA. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) The HMGs are hugely nasty, though, with higher DV, better AP, and FA standard; you're not taking stun.

[Kirk]

(snip)
And none of this nonsense of Damage not exceeding armor going into stun instead either . .
(snip)

Ironically, I consider this genius from a game development perspective. You get extra damage boxes, but at the same time the shooter gets (a chance at) some secondary effect for being dead on target. Not breaking the skin, but bruising the crap out of you.

Just my opinion, of course

[tete]

Well, as Stalseele said, there is more to the mechanics of the game than just the dice roll itself. You could make an argument that SR3 is exactly the same as SR4 because they both ask you to roll 6-sided dice pool to gain successes.

If its not a numeric, i see it as fluff not mechanics. Shamans not being able to summon an air spirit in a building is a setting thing. You may as well say there are Dragons or there are no firearms. A GM could easily let a Shaman summon anything without modifying a rule or make all cyberdecks wireless. Thus why it falls into fluff (for me) Different strokes and all...

[Yerameyahu]

Ha, well that's just clearly silly. A non-mage can't summon any spirits, nor astral perceive (without drugs), and that's not numeric. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's what a 'rule' means.

[Glyph]

My biggest problem with light pistols was twofold. First, their damage code was pitiful. 6L does not compare to 9M - especially against armored targets. Okay, so then light pistols could be the option when heavy pistols were too conspicuous, right? Only there were several light pistols that had comparable concealability and weight to a light pistol! So that left exactly zero reason to ever get a light pistol, other than gimping yourself for flavor.

SR4 actually did it right - light pistols are more concealable, and do a point less damage - a small enough difference that they are actually something I would realistically consider for a character.