Warding and vehicles Options

[onlyghostdancesw...]

Ok so a Gm friend and I had a dispute about warding vehicles and wanted to see if there was something we were missing. Can you ward an entire vehicle so that it is immune to accident powers etc or could you use the power against its wheels etc etc by saying that the ward is based on the car only?

[Traul]

You can't make mobile wards: if the anchor moves, the ward collapses. So the original question is moot.

[CanRay]

Too bad. I'd want one for a car so I could ram Spirits with it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[EpicSpire]

Too bad. I'd want one for a car so I could ram Spirits with it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

that and warding up heavy vehicles so a spirit can't jump in and fear bomb the driver/crew.

[CanRay]

Or scream industrial metal with the volume cranked up to 21. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

I don't think that's right, Traul. "The anchor cannot be moved in relation to the ward."

[Traul]

It's in Street Magic, p.123. The paragraph is called "Remaining stationary". "Wards are not portable astral objects". It looks like they were more thinking about warding weapons than vehicles, but the result is the same: you can't do it.

[Yerameyahu]

Ah, cool. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'd rather it be that way, myself.

[Bodak]

You can't make mobile wards: if the anchor moves, the ward collapses. So the original question is moot.

This is not true. See this post which deals with that very concept. You can ward a vehicle in SR4 just fine. It's a horrible idea that should never have been allowed, but it is totally legitimate now. This thread also had mention of it.

[Yerameyahu]

I mean, 'totally legitimate'? Until there's errata, no. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) FAQ, psh.

[Bodak]

The argument is that this is already explicit in the core books:

The core book (p.185) says as much, a ward cannot be moved from its physical component to another location. This means the two cannot be separated or distanced. It makes no reference as to what happens when the physical reference itself moves.

Again both Street Magic and the core book state that the ward cannot move in relation to the anchor. If the ward and anchor moves there has been no relative movement.

While the FAQ clarifies with examples, it's not introducing anything new. So no worries if the FAQ is dismissed - Synner's argument still stands. It's all there.

[Yerameyahu]

Eh. It's not very convincing, and I think we'd all prefer it not be true. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Besides, this question will be answered in a forthcoming sourcebook. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Adarael]

Speak for yourself! As I've always told people when they bring up the point that they don't like the idea of anchor points and wards moving together...

How do you reconcile this with the rotation of the earth, or the warding of rooms with, say, doors that swivel outward or inward, or skyscrapers, which flex and move in relation to their base anchor point whenever there's wind?

I understand the resistance to warded vehicles, but it's necessary for two major reasons:

1) Large craft such as aircraft carriers or cruise ships would be unable to secure area via wards, even though reasonably one can ward a room inside a ship, because the "vehicle" is moving.
2) It's necessary to prevent utter dominance of spirits in any kind of military combat - spirits may manifest within any craft be it a suborbital or a tank, and down it with a trivial expenditure of powers, unless there is a mage defending each an every military vehicle.

I would suggest setting a lower limit on the Body of any vehicle to be warded, however, as well as the restriction on being enclosed.

[Udoshi]

Too bad. I'd want one for a car so I could ram Spirits with it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

You can still do this.

Ramming is treated as a melee attack.(per the vehicle rules section)
Weapon Foci specifically come with you when you astrally project, and can be used against things there - and use regular weapon skills to boot, instead of astral combat. (per weapon foci rules)

Enchanting a roadmaster as a weapon focus, and playing demolition derby in the spirit world? Priceless.


I've often toyed around with the idea of sending a group on a run to steal a project car - you know, one of those odd, one of a kind, doctorate project/initation thesis/crazy mage in his basement with spare time things - involving an engineer building a car from scratch, and enchanting the whole thing as he went. Perhaps a museum wants it, after sueing for possession, and making sure the other guy didn't show up for court.

[Redjack]

You cannot fully ward a vehicle, through you could create a ward in a vehicle. The ward does not move, per se, however when the vehicle in which it is contained moves, it it anchored to part of that vehicle.

[LurkerOutThere]

Speak for yourself! As I've always told people when they bring up the point that they don't like the idea of anchor points and wards moving together...

How do you reconcile this with the rotation of the earth, or the warding of rooms with, say, doors that swivel outward or inward, or skyscrapers, which flex and move in relation to their base anchor point whenever there's wind?

I understand the resistance to warded vehicles, but it's necessary for two major reasons:

1) Large craft such as aircraft carriers or cruise ships would be unable to secure area via wards, even though reasonably one can ward a room inside a ship, because the "vehicle" is moving.
2) It's necessary to prevent utter dominance of spirits in any kind of military combat - spirits may manifest within any craft be it a suborbital or a tank, and down it with a trivial expenditure of powers, unless there is a mage defending each an every military vehicle.

I would suggest setting a lower limit on the Body of any vehicle to be warded, however, as well as the restriction on being enclosed.

I agree with your points about the affects of not being able to ward vehicles, especially large military class ones, of course when a vehicle gets large enough you can bring awakeneed ivy and other solutions in to play so there is that.

RE Swigning doors: It doesn't matter, as long as the door itself isn't warded a ward doesn't conform to the strict confines of a room anyway, the door might leave the confines of the ward but the ward itself stays in place.

As to the movement of the earth, none of the other shadowrun magical effects care about physics, why would this? Remember this is the game that if you get someplace where sundown and sunset changes you get longer and shorter usage of your spirits with all the wackyness that entails.

[LurkerOutThere]

You cannot fully ward a vehicle, through you could create a ward in a vehicle. The ward does not move, per se, however when the vehicle in which it is contained moves, it it anchored to part of that vehicle.

Except for the fact that the ward moves, the rules don't care if it moved relative, only that it moves.

[Redjack]

You cannot fully ward a vehicle, through you could create a ward in a vehicle. The ward does not move, per se, however when the vehicle in which it is contained moves, it it anchored to part of that vehicle.

Except for the fact that the ward moves, the rules don't care if it moved relative, only that it moves.

The ward is not moving, it is stationary in relation to its anchor. We had it confirmed at the tournament this year at Gen Con... I seem to remember this was also in the official FAQ.. Which coincidentally has gone missing from the Shadowrun4 website..

[CanRay]

"...Men live and die, and the Turtle Moves. Empires grow and crumble, and the Turtle Moves. Gods come and go, and still the Turtle Moves. The Turtle Moves." - Didactylos, Small Gods, Sir Terry Pratchett.

The ward is not moving, it is stationary in relation to its anchor. We had it confirmed at the tournament this year at Gen Con... I seem to remember this was also in the official FAQ.. Which coincidentally has gone missing from the Shadowrun4 website.

Oh, time to put on my Plan 9 Tinfoil Hat and work out where the conspiracy is! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Redjack]

Can a ward be placed inside a moving van?

"A physical anchor cannot move more than a few centimeters relative to the ward enclosure when the ward was created." That's the key phrase and it can be pretty tricky. For instance, if you create a domed ward outdoors using a rock as the physical anchor, and then someone kicks that rock a few feet, the ward will collapse. It has moved more than few centimeters from its position relative to the domed ward at creation. But, if you ward a shipping container using the walls of that shipping container as the physical anchor, and the shipping container is shipped across the Pacific Ocean, the ward does not collapse. The entire warded enclosure is moving, so in the relationship between the ward and physical anchor, it hasn't moved at all from its relationship at the ward's creation.

As an aside, this is also why the spin of the Earth doesn't cause the domed ward around the rock to collapse. Because the entire enclosure is moving with the rotation of the Earth. Until someone kicks that rock, the relationship between the ward and stone remain the same.

[CanRay]

So, as long as there's some kind of frame (Like the interior of a car or the walls of a mobile home), the ward can move. But if the ward is cast on something that lacks said anchoring points, then it collapses as it moves.

Makes sense.

[Bodak]

I seem to remember this was also in the official FAQ.. Which coincidentally has gone missing from the Shadowrun4 website..

Did you look here http://www.shadowrun4.com/game-resources/f...sked-questions/ ?

People were arguing against the FAQ being legitimate though, so if possible, let's keep this to the books (which Synner argues allow for mobile wards).

[Mardrax]

Except for the fact that the ward moves, the rules don't care if it moved relative, only that it moves.

Except for that the rules only about wether or not the ward moves in relation to the anchor.
As has been iterated time and again: move the anchor the same ammount as you're moving the ward and you're fine.

You cannot fully ward a vehicle, through you could create a ward in a vehicle.

Why could you not fully ward a vehicle, provided said vehicle doesn't exceed ward space limitations?

[Redjack]

Why could you not fully ward a vehicle, provided said vehicle doesn't exceed ward space limitations?

Where is the anchor then?

[HunterHerne]

Where is the anchor then?

Maybe the roof?