Warding and vehicles Options

[Yerameyahu]

That's a big erratum. It still doesn't *make sense*, but at least it's in the rules.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't Know, I think it makes perfect sense, and it is how we have always run it. *shrug*

[Yerameyahu]

It doesn't, but I'm not going to repeat myself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It doesn't, but I'm not going to repeat myself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Heh... No worries Yerameyahu... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Saint Hallow]

What of mobile homes? As long as the vehicle stays parked, it can be warded I'm guessing.

[CanRay]

What of mobile homes? As long as the vehicle stays parked, it can be warded I'm guessing.

Your Shadowrunner might be a Redneck if...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What of mobile homes? As long as the vehicle stays parked, it can be warded I'm guessing.

Since they can be warded when they are moving, they of course can be warded if they are stationary... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Neowulf]

"If yer ally spirit manifests as a john deere tractor..."
"If any part of yer summoning ritual is a hog call..."
"If yer shamanic mask is a truckers cap and tank top..."

[Wiseman]

We always played it as wards are mobile, as long as the anchor and ward are in fixed relation. Thus you can ward a chest or even a car. While a warded car can cause some interesting situations/rulings, not being able to ward a chest can be just as problematic and counter-intuitive to the point of wards.

I personally interperted the need for open air wards to have a tie to the physical to mean that it doesn't have to be a wall per se, but a clear delineated marker of sorts. So you could have an open air ward that is marked by a Tree, A well, and the front porch of a house to define the boundaries (within the maximum allowed area, etc.).

You could set a ward with 2 points to define the boundary (a "wall"), but it's pretty easily bypassed, so kind of pointless.

As for windows being up or down, cave openings, and picket fences, I don't think that leaves gaps in the ward at all. They're just physical "markers" of the boundary, not the actual ward. I pretend magic is stupid and needs these markers to spell out (for me the GM) exactly what is protected and what isn't.

I think understanding wards coming from SR3 did help when looking over things in SR4/SR4A.

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, I agree. I think it's clear that wards in SR4 are mobile (and 'portable'), and that they must be defined by anchor, some minimal number of *other* objects (probably *on* the boundary of the ward), and possibly some kind of simple geometric rules (sphere with radius x). Metaphysical interpretations of 'object', etc., are what keep you from warding a rock and carrying it around.

I just don't think the rules *say* this and (actually contradict it), because they are dumb. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Wiseman]

Yes, I agree. I think it's clear that wards in SR4 are mobile (and 'portable'), and that they must be defined by anchor, some minimal number of *other* objects (probably *on* the boundary of the ward), and possibly some kind of simple geometric rules (sphere with radius x). Metaphysical interpretations of 'object', etc., are what keep you from warding a rock and carrying it around.

I just don't think the rules *say* this and (actually contradict it), because they are dumb. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Who can argue with that? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's shadowrun, brain required (and heavily taxed). But I long ago gave up feeling the books/RAW were the whole of the rules/world and so dumpshock is a great resource to iron out thoughts (hopefully before they come up at the table so I can look all knowledgable an shit).

[KarmaInferno]

Given that the classical depiction of magical wards is generally some marked off area surrounding objects of power, I would play that you MUST physically delineate the ward's perimeters.

Even if it's just salt poured around the edges of a room or a circle inscribed on the ground.

I would think the minimum size of a ward should be bigger, though. I've rarely seen one in media or literature that wasn't at least large enough for a half dozen folks to squeeze into. Making the minimum size bigger would also restrict mobile usage to van sized areas or larger.

A good point was brought up earlier - if wards cannot move with their anchors, even if we assume the earth's manasphere to be the reference, wards cast in skyscrapers should fail immediately since skyscrapers do sway back and forth regularly, sometimes by a surprising amount.



-k

[Yerameyahu]

There are even (relatively small) tidal effects on the dirt, IIRC. There are certainly ample examples of these kind, yeah. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Bodak]

Thus you can ward a chest or even a car. While a warded car can cause some interesting situations/rulings, not being able to ward a chest can be just as problematic and counter-intuitive to the point of wards.

While you could ward a chest, the minimum ward extends one metre radius from the designated anchor. You would need a two metre cube to contain a minimal ward, and that's typically larger than what I would think of as a chest.

Metaphysical interpretations of 'object', etc., are what keep you from warding a rock and carrying it around.

Maybe if we just listened to history, it wouldn't need to repeat itself so often:

Does this mean that I can create a ward using a rock as an anchor and if I performed the ritual on a platform at least a meter off the ground I could make a ward that had no barriers conforming with the ground or any walls and I could pick up the rock and move it around?

Technically yes, though I'd advocate some leniency on the part of the gamemaster.

Now with the portable ward, does that means I can carry around a 2m sphere that magic can't be cast through? How is that not broken?

Broken as compared to a magical personal spell/astral barrier spell that doesn't cost any nuyen, can be turned on and off at will, and won't get knocked out permanently and/or set off all types of arcane alarms when it runs into another ward?

[Saint Hallow]

Warding stops beings from astrally entering, correct? If you're in a moving object, from astral, the being shouldn't be able to tell where you are or what you're in, as inanimate/non-living things in astral appear blurry & indistinct, right? A moving car in astral looks like what?

[Yerameyahu]

I don't know why you keep quoting that silly stuff over and over, Bodak. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Incidentally, that's not what I was talking about, because he's wrong there: a ward defined by a rock and the ground would pop as soon as you moved the rock.

Instead, I meant that (if you define 'object' stupidly) you could define a ward be 2+ points *on the rock*… if it's allowed to define a ward that's mostly 'open air', and I don't think it is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Instead, it seems clear that minimal definition for a ward is an anchor, and significant bounding objects (which I believe are required to be *on* the surface of the ward) more or less evenly distributed. That is, open air wards are *not* really possible. That's not what the books say, and it's not what Synner said.

[Bodak]

Initially, I just pointed out that people's superficial objections had already been thrashed to death in that thread. People seemed to ignore the link and its contents, repeating objections already addresses there in this new thread. People only started taking notice of that thread's answers when I started with the copypasta... and even some found reading that was too much of an effort! I find it much easier to search and then read than to form a new ill-informed post -- but it seems I'm alone in that regard (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) I found the initial thread quite useful and the repetition of its questions and ignoring of its answers here quite silly... am I alone in that regard also?

As for the warded rock idea, odinson suggested he could "create a ward using a rock as an anchor ... pick up the rock and move it around" which you mimicked by suggesting "warding a rock and carrying it around". It seemed quite closely related as I read it. And his intention in establishing "a ward that had no barriers conforming with the ground or any walls" sounded like it was explicitly designed to not depend on physical delineations but only the central anchor.

[Minimax le Rouge]

The problem remain the same if you take a 2m staff, and fix a stone on each end.
Define the stones as anchors and you have a portable ward?
Seems dangerous, thats why as a GM i say a ward need a minimum of 4 Anchors in a non-planar alignment, separed by 1m minimum from each other.

[Wiseman]

While you could ward a chest, the minimum ward extends one metre radius from the designated anchor. You would need a two metre cube to contain a minimal ward, and that's typically larger than what I would think of as a chest.
Maybe if we just listened to history, it wouldn't need to repeat itself so often:

True, but then "chest" was probably out of place in the setting. How about a shipping container instead. I can think of a ton of plot related reasons I'd want a shipping container to have a ward.

The problem remain the same if you take a 2m staff, and fix a stone on each end.
Define the stones as anchors and you have a portable ward?
Seems dangerous, thats why as a GM i say a ward need a minimum of 4 Anchors in a non-planar alignment, separed by 1m minimum from each other.

Well yea kinda, you'd have a warded staff, but not a staff that emanates a ward bubble you carry around.

To me, that's what the physical boundaries of the ward are about. If you ward a shipping container, I don't think the ward is a radius around the container, rather the boundaries conform to the container's walls. So I'm not seeing what you are in regards to carrying around a warded staff.

I wouldn't even let the warded staff function as a "magic weapon".

[Minimax le Rouge]

To me, that's what the physical boundaries of the ward are about. If you ward a shipping container, I don't think the ward is a radius around the container, rather the boundaries conform to the container's walls. So I'm not seeing what you are in regards to carrying around a warded staff.

I wouldn't even let the warded staff function as a "magic weapon".

Because of the interaction betwen wards and
* other wards (collapse)
* spirit/projecting mages/dual natures creatures passing througt (ward collapse or spirit disrupted or creature stunned)
* in the same way i can ward a shield, so could i parry direct spells...

and i don't doubt their will be other issues with a man-portable ward.

[Yerameyahu]

As long as you could near-perfectly move those stones without moving them relative to each other, that *would* work if we're assuming 2 points is enough. I agree that we instead must assume 2 is not enough.

We do know that the entire surface of the ward *doesn't* have to be physically bounded (house with windows, gazebo, forest clearing, etc.). But there does seem to be a tipping point, as if the surface of the ward does have to be *substantially* bound by physical objects (which, I believe, must also be to some extent evenly distributed). I posit that a stone and flat ground are enough, *if* you also have a circle of salt, 3 other stones *in a ring*, etc., even though this results in an 'open air' half-sphere (or other simply volume shape). What you can't do is have the 'open air' parts of a ward extended unreasonably beyond the bounding objects (a bubble outside the shipping container, a pickup truck with a 30' bubble over the bed, etc.).

Given that the (bounding) physical structure of a ward is unwieldy (large in 3D for even a troll), there's not too much worry about 'carrying around a spell shield', I would think. The bounding structure also has to be strong and rigid, because the ward has no physical effects, and breakage while moving would pop the ward. This satisfies portability, mobility, any earth's-rotation/etc. problems, and still keeps wards firmly in the 'location-protection' business. Yes?

[KarmaInferno]

They could probably build a warded shield for a battlemech, though.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)




-k

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, as long as it was big, '3D' (as in 'more sphere than disc'), and strong enough to survive movement and combat. It's like blocking bullets by carrying an oil drum. I think a really extreme Captain America shield would work (for the battlemech), if it's literally a half-sphere.

But easier to just ward an APC (simple shape, bounding objects, etc.), which seems okay. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

Hey, I blocked bullets with a garbage dumpster in Deus Ex. Kinda like that?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)




-k

[Wiseman]

Because of the interaction betwen wards and
* other wards (collapse)
* spirit/projecting mages/dual natures creatures passing througt (ward collapse or spirit disrupted or creature stunned)
* in the same way i can ward a shield, so could i parry direct spells...

and i don't doubt their will be other issues with a man-portable ward.

Again, I don't think we see wards the same way.

* Possibly collapse, but that's not exactly gamebreaking
* Why would they need to pass through the staff? Are you suggesting to "hit" them with the ward to force something to pass through? (A ward is defensive by definition). I'd rule if you're forcing the ward on them instead of vice versa, the ward will break, but that isn't RAW, just HR/PO (house rule/personal opinion), but then there aren't any rules for what you're suggesting either. A ward does not a magic weapon make.
* Huh? Only the shield would be so warded so I don't see how that protection would extend to the shield-bearer or allow you to "parry" anything. Even warded armor would make more sense (I still wouldn't allow it at my table since the pieces of armor are flexible and have to be put on/assembled in the first place, breaking the relative position to the anchor).

While I understand your thought process, I simply don't agree with your conclusions of how a warded object interacts when used as anything other than a Ward. (read magical barrier to protect or guard an area or object)

Might as well argue the magic fingers spell allows you to grip someones heart and kill them instantly. You can't just extrapolate on what would otherwise be logical when it comes to "magic".