Warding and vehicles Options

[Yerameyahu]

Snark aside, I honestly don't understand Synner's argument. By the rules (in Street Magic), there are just 2 things: the anchor, and the ward bubble around it. The book says the anchor can't move. It doesn't say 'relative to the ward' (which, again, is just a bubble of mana). Even if you make the ward 'conform' to the walls of a room, it's *not* the walls, just a bubble up against them (or perhaps 'inside them'). They (or one of them) can be the anchor, as long as they're inside the ward.

I guess the main confusion is this bit: "Note that the wards require both a physical component for its anchor and for its limits." I don't know where this comes from. I don't see it in the rules at all. The existence of open-air wards makes this pretty obviously false, and the book explains that wards are spheres, ovoids, etc., none of which are likely to be the shape of physical objects nearby—cubes, perhaps, and they're an option. There's a bit in SR4A that's unclear enough to pass, though: "A basic ward must be placed on a non-living thing (walls, rocks, and so on), and it must possess a physical anchor (an object or symbol of mystical significance that provides a “focal point” for the ward). The anchor cannot be moved in relation to the ward."

So, either they're fully portable (flagrantly against the quoted bit), or they're not at all. Yes, this leaves the aircraft carrier problem. *shrug* I didn't write the crap. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I honestly don't care which version is 'right', I just don't see how SR4A and Street Magic agree.

[Adarael]

Um. Only one Frank quote so far.

It's been mostly Peter Taylor and Aaron Pavao. (Forum names "Synner" and "Aaron", respectively).

Yes, Karma, I know that. I am capable of reading attributions on quotes. I am also aware of who Peter and Aaron are. I'm just pre-empting any Frankisms that may ever be brought up on any subject, ever.

I would pre-empt them with napalm, if I could.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not according to Frank.

Frank has absolutely no bearing on this topic whatsoever. *shrug*

And I agree about Wards. They can be anchored to a Vehicle.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Snark aside, I honestly don't understand Synner's argument. By the rules (in Street Magic), there are just 2 things: the anchor, and the ward bubble around it. The book says the anchor can't move. It doesn't say 'relative to the ward' (which, again, is just a bubble of mana). Even if you make the ward 'conform' to the walls of a room, it's *not* the walls, just a bubble up against them (or perhaps 'inside them'). They (or one of them) can be the anchor, as long as they're inside the ward.

I guess the main confusion is this bit: "Note that the wards require both a physical component for its anchor and for its limits." I don't know where this comes from. I don't see it in the rules at all. The existence of open-air wards makes this pretty obviously false, and the book explains that wards are spheres, ovoids, etc., none of which are likely to be the shape of physical objects nearby—cubes, perhaps, and they're an option. There's a bit in SR4A that's unclear enough to pass, though: "A basic ward must be placed on a non-living thing (walls, rocks, and so on), and it must possess a physical anchor (an object or symbol of mystical significance that provides a “focal point” for the ward). The anchor cannot be moved in relation to the ward."

So, either they're fully portable (flagrantly against the quoted bit), or they're not at all. Yes, this leaves the aircraft carrier problem. *shrug* I didn't write the crap. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I honestly don't care which version is 'right', I just don't see how SR4A and Street Magic agree.

Wads Have a limiter in space. IIRC, it is 50 Square Meters per Force or Magic Rating. That is its delimiter.

[Saint Hallow]

Suppose you do ward a vehicle... if someone rolls down the window, does that leave an opening for the spirit to enter & do something?

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, but not a secondary 'outside' component to match the anchor. That's just how big they can be.

Look, either wards are bubbles of mana, or they're 'infused' physical spaces. It just *can't* be the latter, because that'd mean you could only ward sealed caves and enclosed rooms. If there's any 'open air' part, then wards must be freestanding; this is what Street Magic says. There's a single physical component: the anchor. The anchor can be anything from a pebble to a wall, and it can be anywhere inside the ward at the moment of creation. After that moment, I don't see how the anchor can move. Street Magic says it can't. That means no cars.

If this isn't what's intended or desired, by all means house rule it. I just don't see how it can be argued that Street Magic doesn't say it: "If the physical anchor moves more than a few centimeters from *its* location at the time of the warding ritual, the entire ward collapses."

[KarmaInferno]

The problem is, of course, is that all anchors move from their starting location. At 1.3 million miles an hour.




-k

[Bodak]

If all wards act with the same frame of reference, what could it be? An inertial frame of reference is silly, since the world is traveling far too fast for a ward to ever be stationary. I think the most obviously appropriate frame of reference is the Earth herself, the Gaiasphere that generates the astral field in the first place.

Definitely. But the same relative / absolute question arises when moving the area of effect of a sustained spell. If you cast an area sustained spell while within a moving train, does the area of effect pass through the back of the train immediately?

[Hound]

The problem is, of course, is that all anchors move from their starting location. At 1.3 million miles an hour.




-k

hahaha true.

Yerameyahu, there's a third option in your list of what wards could be. Perhaps they're literally like bubbles, in that they need a piece of land/matter/whatever to support them, but can still have surfaces that are free standing.

I've always been a bit confused on this whole subject, it seems like the rules are kinda jumbled. Despite what I said up there, I generally rule that wards cannot be moved, no matter what their relationship between borders and anchors are. On the subject of KarmaInferno's comment about all anchors moving due to the motion of the Earth, it could be that that "doesn't count" because the entire manasphere (is that even a word?) is moving with them.

With regards to the spell on a train scenario, my understanding has been that it would stay with you. Sustained spells seem to me to be more connected to the person sustaining them than the environment around them, where as the anchor of a ward would suggest that it is more connected to it's physical location in some way. So actually, for the train example, my answer would be "That depends on what the mage wants to happen."

[Bodak]

With regards to the spell on a train scenario, my understanding has been that it would stay with you. Sustained spells seem to me to be more connected to the person sustaining them than the environment around them, where as the anchor of a ward would suggest that it is more connected to it's physical location in some way. So actually, for the train example, my answer would be "That depends on what the mage wants to happen."

So a mage casts TriD Phantasm inside the carriage while the train is stationary at a station. The illusion appears, inside the carriage. Then the train starts moving. It would be nice if the rules specified the area of effect is relative to something the mage chooses (eg "this carriage") or if it is always relative to the Earth. If the former, the illusion can come with the train carriage (or get left behind if the mage prefers). Whereas if it is always relative to the Earth, area spells can never be sustained in vehicles moving above a certain speed (so no disguising fast-moving vehicles with TriD Phantasm).

Likewise it would be nice if the rules specified the area enclosed by a ward is relative to something the mage chooses (eg "this portable anchor") or if it is always relative to the Earth.

If the area spell sustaining location "makes sense" to be relative to a chosen reference point (so vehicles can contain sustained area effects) then that should carry over to ward locations being relative to a chosen reference point.

[Yerameyahu]

Nothing wrong with making the earth the reference point, KarmaInferno. It's magic.

For Phantasm/etc., I assume the reference point is the mage, but yes, there are clear issues with that. It's just magic. Let's talk about wards, and there's no reason the two should be similar. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Wards definitely refer to 'location'. It is a stretch to make that mean something other than 'geographic location'.

My point is just that Street Magic and SR4A do not agree; the latter (vaguely!) implies some kind of multi-anchor system, while SM just says there's an anchor, period. I don't care which is right, I don't care if wards can move (or 'be moved', as if that distinction mattered), I just want coherence. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Nothing wrong with making the earth the reference point, KarmaInferno. It's magic.

For Phantasm/etc., I assume the reference point is the mage, but yes, there are clear issues with that. It's just magic. Let's talk about wards, and there's no reason the two should be similar. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Wards definitely refer to 'location'. It is a stretch to make that mean something other than 'geographic location'.

My point is just that Street Magic and SR4A do not agree; the latter (vaguely!) implies some kind of multi-anchor system, while SM just says there's an anchor, period. I don't care which is right, I don't care if wards can move (or 'be moved', as if that distinction mattered), I just want coherence. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But the Developer of the Time already provided that coherence (unless I am a complete Whackjob). You can Ward the inside of a Vehicle per Synner's posts. What more coherence do you need?

[DamienKnight]

Couldnt someone install Biofiber inside the vehicle walls to create an astral barrier? I know it is vunerable to pollution, so it would probably have to be a vehicle with a sealed environment, but its doable.

Couldnt really put it in a gun, but the floor, ceiling and walls of a vehicle should be fine for Biofiber.

[Yerameyahu]

I don't care about the devs. The *books* disagree. Is he saying that Street Magic is wrong, and requires errata? Is he also saying that wards require an anchor *and* a perimeter object (but not an enclosing physical structure)?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't care about the devs. The *books* disagree. Is he saying that Street Magic is wrong, and requires errata? Is he also saying that wards require an anchor *and* a perimeter object (but not an enclosing physical structure)?

Does it matter? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Of course the Books need Errata, what else is new?

[Yerameyahu]

It's a significant difference. Synner's version is that open-air wards can't exist, because you have to have (some unspecified) amount of perimeter objects.

[simplexio]

I don't care about the devs. The *books* disagree. Is he saying that Street Magic is wrong, and requires errata? Is he also saying that wards require an anchor *and* a perimeter object (but not an enclosing physical structure)?

perimeter as walls inside vehicle ?

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, or the walls and ceiling of a room. But what about a gazebo? A cave with a mouth? A convertible? An open field with one cairn? Can you make a ward using 2 tent stakes, but not 1? 3? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's a significant difference. Synner's version is that open-air wards can't exist, because you have to have (some unspecified) amount of perimeter objects.

Okay, I see. But admittedly, Open Air Wards are Odd. I don't ever remember a time where I had a character set an "Open Air" ward. I always had a "perimeter" barrier of some sort.

If you want an "Open Air" ward, Just Use a Mana Barrier Spell. *shrug*

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yes, or the walls and ceiling of a room. But what about a gazebo? A cave with a mouth? A convertible? An open field with one cairn? Can you make a ward using 2 tent stakes, but not 1? 3? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As long as the shape you set has delimiters, it should work. I would allow a Gazebo, or A Cave. Not sure about the Single Cairn Field or Singel Tent Stake Delimiters (Would allow 3 though, as that establishes a shape, where 1 or 2 does not); it would really depend upon how the description of the Ward comes about. It is a story after all. "Whatever serves the story best" is not a bad way to look at it. A Wall lends itslef more to a Barrier Spell, as it needs no true volume. Wards cover Volumes.

*Shrug*

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, but what *is* the perimeter? You didn't read. Is it 1 other point (a sphere with a center and any surface point)? Is it 3 points, 4, 8? A point and a line? A point and a surface? Can the convertible have a ward? Can the house without windowpanes?

That's not a good suggestion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You can just use a mana barrier spell in the place of *any ward* by that logic.

(Ack, you changed your reply. Well, I'm not changing mine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

And, is it about having limits, or is it about having *objects* integrated into the ward structure? That is, basically multiple anchors, not just defined limits.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yes, but what *is* the perimeter? You didn't read. Is it 1 other point (a sphere with a center and any surface point)? Is it 3 points, 4, 8? A point and a line? A point and a surface? Can the convertible have a ward? Can the house without windowpanes?

That's not a good suggestion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You can just use a mana barrier spell in the place of *any ward* by that logic.

(Ack, you changed your reply. Well, I'm not changing mine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

And, is it about having limits, or is it about having *objects* integrated into the ward structure? That is, basically multiple anchors, not just defined limits.

Sorry, I somtimes hit the button to post by mistake in my hurry to type.

You need a focus for the Anchor, and an Area delimiter. Now, can you get an area from a center and edge point (Sure. And I guess that can work. I usually use the idea that you need an enclosed (though not sealed) space to ward.

A Flat plane is covered by the Barrier Spells, which handle this nicely. Volumes are covered by Wards. Volumes have definite edges. I just make the edges "definite" in game. So a room is obvious. A House without winbdow panes also works. An Open Air Bubble would need a Center Defining and Edge Defining Limit, and would be a pain to actually construct because I hate Geometry in my games. Simple Geometry is not bothersome, but the area/volume of a Half Sphere I just do not necessarily like to stop to calculate. Just a personal pet peeve. If someone wanted to do so, I would let them, as long as they did the math while I attended to other things. I might or might not check the math later. Depends upon how much I trust the Player doing the math.

In the end, though, I have never had a player WANT to put an Open Air Ward into place. It is just strange to me. *shrug*

I see the issue, though.

[Yerameyahu]

Right. But the open-air bubble is just the logical extreme of the 'walls with holes' issue. I agree that it's *usually* obvious: 'this room', etc. But it's a significant issue that we're not sure if you can make a mana dome *ward* in a field, a mana dome *ward* in a convertible/pickup truck, a ward that covers a circular-ish clearing in a forest, and so on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) This is actually totally apart from the 'portable/movable' question, except for the fact that Synner's argument is based on it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Right. But the open-air bubble is just the logical extreme of the 'walls with holes' issue. I agree that it's *usually* obvious: 'this room', etc. But it's a significant issue that we're not sure if you can make a mana dome *ward* in a field, a mana dome *ward* in a convertible/pickup truck, a ward that covers a circular-ish clearing in a forest, and so on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) This is actually totally apart from the 'portable/movable' question, except for the fact that Synner's argument is based on it.

Yep, I get it... Not sure how to resolve that one. I have Never had to myself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Bodak]

Except for the fact that the ward moves, the rules don't care if it moved relative, only that it moves.

Snark aside, I honestly don't understand Synner's argument. By the rules (in Street Magic), there are just 2 things: the anchor, and the ward bubble around it. The book says the anchor can't move. It doesn't say 'relative to the ward'

I just noticed that there is a SM Erratum:

p. 123 Remaining Stationary
The third line should read:
“If the physical anchor moves more than a few centimeters from its location relative to the limits of the ward’s enclosure(…)”

which would render the text in SM as:

Wards are not portable astral objects. The warding ritual creates an astral link between the shadow of the physical anchor and the space being warded. If the physical anchor moves more than a few centimeters from its location relative to the limits of the ward’s enclosure at the time of the warding ritual, the entire ward collapses.