Caseless Ammunition, Is it even listed in the books? Options

[OptimumStratego]

Various weapons and weapon modifications reference "caseless" ammunition.

A simple question: where are the rules (if there are any) for caseless ammunition?

[Tanegar]

There aren't any. There's a blurb in the core about how each weapon can only use one or the other (cased or caseless), but that's it. Costs are the same, stats are the same, et al.

[Minimax le Rouge]

Firearms are primarily slug-throwers. Many weapons offer two versions, for standard loads or for caseless ammunition, though the latter is far more common in the 2070s. A weapon can fire either type of ammunition, but not both interchangeably.

Ammunition is defined first by its various types (standard, gel, APDS, etc.), second by the class of gun for which it was made (light pistol, assault rifle, MMG, etc.), and third as cased or caseless. (...). In these basic rules, the difference between cased and caseless ammunition is that caseless ammo has its own propellant and does not have a cartridge case. A gun can fire cased or caseless ammo, but not both.

[OptimumStratego]

Thank you kindly for your quick and coherent responses.

So effectively, it is only a distinction that makes it harder for PCs or NPCs to scavenge ammo. Interesting.

[Elfenlied]

It's mostly flavor, as far as I can tell.

[Dakka Dakka]

So effectively, it is only a distinction that makes it harder for PCs or NPCs to scavenge ammo. Interesting.

Not so much, as anyone would probably have changed to caseless by 2070. There are no longer the drawbacks (higher cost, less safety) of today's caseless ammunition, while the advantages should remain (less weight, less space). Also the scavenging problem is mitigated by the sharing of ammunition between weapons of the same category.

[ChatNoir]

One of the advantages of the caseless ammo is that it leaves less forsenic evidences to be used against the PCs. But it's also true when PCs are tracking some other people.

[Shortstraw]

But it doesn't jingle prettily when you fire.

[Zaranthan]

But it doesn't jingle prettily when you fire.

This so much. I usually insist on belt-fed weapons using cased rounds just so I can narrate that wonderful sound.

[EpicSpire]

Thank you kindly for your quick and coherent responses.

So effectively, it is only a distinction that makes it harder for PCs or NPCs to scavenge ammo. Interesting.

Not so much, as anyone would probably have changed to caseless by 2070. There are no longer the drawbacks (higher cost, less safety) of today's caseless ammunition, while the advantages should remain (less weight, less space). Also the scavenging problem is mitigated by the sharing of ammunition between weapons of the same category.

i can see this if the PCs were in a deep Shadowrun mission, or if it was in a Post Apoc setting where ammo was limited. if the Players had stated that their weapons used caseless, and they found an ammo supply full of cased ammo, then yeah,. they would not be able to use it. but for the most part, i don't see it coming into play that often.

[CanRay]

I ruled that revolvers use Cased Ammo. I like the idea of Belt-Fed weapons using Cased as well.

As for a Post Apoc setting... Oh man, the cursing my group did when they were paid in pistol ammo... All they had were rifles, and considered full-auto to be something to avoid at all costs except in vehicular combat.

[MJBurrage]

Cased vs Caseless has always been mostly fluff in Shadowrun. Said written fluff implies caseless is more common, but the art usually implies the latter.

Regardless the fluff also states that a caseless weapon holds a few more rounds than a cased one, so if you convert a weapon you would gain or lose some ammo capacity depending on which way you went.

IMHO it is only even in the fluff because the H&K G11 was still new and cool when the game was originally being developed. The actual G11 was cool, but the ammo had production cost issues, and was not adopted. In SR we do have the "G12"

Anyway, in my games we assume the stats are for cased ammo unless the specific weapon's fluff says otherwise (the "G12" for example), and a weapon cannot be converted from one type to the other. This makes caseless a curiosity in most games.

P.S. in especially realistic games, spent cases as evidence, might change the desires of the runners in this respect. But if caseless is unusual, the bullets might end up being more traceable than a common case would be.

P.P.S. if the bullets are the same, and caseless versions of common weapons can simply be ordered, than any smart runner should go for those (even if the capacity is the same), since there would be less evidence left behind.

[CanRay]

There's also the issue of replacing all the old cased ammo stockpiles that countries have, and NATO agreements on standardization of ammunition and magazine styles.

The Colt Government Model 2066 is caseless as well, BTW.

[Dakka Dakka]

In these basic rules, the difference between cased and caseless ammunition is that caseless ammo has its own propellant and does not have a cartridge case. A gun can fire cased or caseless ammo, but not both.

So at the very least any weapon is available in caseless and cased setup.

According to the book all assault rifles do share the same ammunition, but by RAW not even the Colt M22A3 and M23 share magazines, not to mention all the other weapons whose predecessors had STANAG magazines.

[CanRay]

Or the AK-97 and AK-97 "Carbine" can't use the same ammo or magazines either.

Really needs to be a carbine class of firearm, methinks.

[simplexio]

my understanding is that all weapons use caseless ammo by default.

guns using cased ammo is old or "special" case

my 2cnts

[CanRay]

I'd include "Civilian" weapons in that list. Shotguns and Hunting Rifles, for example, without "Special Order" items in caseless. Something to help the authorities if it gets stolen of course... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Wounded Ronin]

Shadowrun has always been hilarious about not differentiating really between cased and caseless.

Back when SR was first written they thought we'd all go caseless eventually.

If you wanted to be realistic caseless weapons would have extremely high rates of automatic fire compared to cased. They should be able to spit out over a thousand rounds per minute, and theoretically the first few rounds in your long burst would be mostly unaffected by recoil because they'd be through the action and out the barrel so fast.

Cons to caseless systems are ridiculously high rates of ammo expenditure, questionable safety, problems with overheating, and costly ammo.

Turns out expelling hot brass also helps keep your action cooler.

So actually it's kind of a big difference.

[Elfenlied]

The question is whether you want to deal with suchs a difference ingame.

[Miri]

Shadowrun has always been hilarious about not differentiating really between cased and caseless.

Back when SR was first written they thought we'd all go caseless eventually.

If you wanted to be realistic caseless weapons would have extremely high rates of automatic fire compared to cased. They should be able to spit out over a thousand rounds per minute, and theoretically the first few rounds in your long burst would be mostly unaffected by recoil because they'd be through the action and out the barrel so fast.

Cons to caseless systems are ridiculously high rates of ammo expenditure, questionable safety, problems with overheating, and costly ammo.

Turns out expelling hot brass also helps keep your action cooler.

So actually it's kind of a big difference.

Chamber and slide still has to cycle to get a new round into the barrel and also push the firing pin back (electrical firing mod not withstanding..). So while I do think there would be a bit of firing speed increase I don't believe it will be enough to make that big a difference. If you want stupidly fast fire rates for your weapons use the High Velocity mod.

[Warlordtheft]

The question is whether you want to deal with suchs a difference ingame.

As I recall, caseless gave you a minor increase in ammo capacity in SR2. I think it did the same in SR3. I guess the extra 5 bullets (it was like a 10% increase) wasn't worth the hassel of having to deal with it in 4th ed. You could always house rule it that way.

[Wounded Ronin]

The question is whether you want to deal with suchs a difference ingame.

The answer to the question is a resounding yes. Micro management of gear helps me get in-character.

[Wounded Ronin]

Chamber and slide still has to cycle to get a new round into the barrel and also push the firing pin back (electrical firing mod not withstanding..). So while I do think there would be a bit of firing speed increase I don't believe it will be enough to make that big a difference. If you want stupidly fast fire rates for your weapons use the High Velocity mod.

Wikipedia lists the cyclic rate of fire for 3 round burst mode in a G11 as 2000 rounds per minute.

[KarmaInferno]

The G11 cycled ammo so fast that in the time the floating block fully recoiled once, the weapon had loaded and fired three times.

Reports from people observing stated that a burst from the G11 sounded like a single gunshot.



-k

[Yerameyahu]

In that case (hyuk), each weapon basically has to be cased or caseless from the design phase up, right? So it's not a player decision in terms of ammo at all. A weapon modification might be available.