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> Why German Gridguide is better than American Gridguide
CanRay
post Sep 25 2011, 10:44 PM
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Even In-Canada flights. But, yes, especially to the USA.

"Welcome to the United States, we're now going to molest you, microwave you, and possibly steal things from you. Legally."

To be fair, in some cities, that might be a nice introduction as to what's really going to happen later on, only worse. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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HunterHerne
post Sep 25 2011, 10:46 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Sep 25 2011, 06:44 PM) *
Even In-Canada flights. But, yes, especially to the USA.

"Welcome to the United States, we're now going to molest you, microwave you, and possibly steal things from you. Legally."

To be fair, in some cities, that might be a nice introduction as to what's really going to happen later on, only worse. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


New York, New York
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CanRay
post Sep 25 2011, 10:47 PM
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There's still people in New York that want to kill me, so I won't be going there any time soon.

I was thinking more Washington, DC, actually. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) '

Let's get back to GridGuide.
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HunterHerne
post Sep 25 2011, 10:50 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Sep 25 2011, 06:47 PM) *
There's still people in New York that want to kill me, so I won't be going there any time soon.

I was thinking more Washington, DC, actually. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) '

Let's get back to GridGuide.


Fair enough.

Personally, I think it's impossible to do anyway other then the inidividual vehicle way. People just enjoy their (illusion of) freedom too much.
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CanRay
post Sep 25 2011, 10:53 PM
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What freedom?

Oh, right, I'm not a Sheeple.
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Draco18s
post Sep 26 2011, 01:47 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Sep 25 2011, 06:53 PM) *
What freedom?

Oh, right, I'm not a Sheeple.


Quote from a book I read recently.

"There's three kinds of people in the world: scoundrels, hypocrites, and sheep."
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CanRay
post Sep 26 2011, 02:01 PM
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Well, I'm not a hypocrite... Does that make me a Scoundrel, however? I thought I was just some weirdo.
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Draco18s
post Sep 26 2011, 02:07 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Sep 26 2011, 10:01 AM) *
Well, I'm not a hypocrite... Does that make me a Scoundrel, however? I thought I was just some weirdo.


Heh.
Within the context of the book, it was one character (former space pirate) talking about another character (also a former pirate who opposed the government). The sheep were...even more sheep-y (think "human ant colony": every individual is exactly the same as any other, to the point of one planet having forgone names). The planetary rulers were the hypocrites (because they espoused sameness, but were themselves unique).
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CanRay
post Sep 26 2011, 02:09 PM
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Oh, almost the way trophy wives are, gotcha. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Draco18s
post Sep 26 2011, 02:15 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Sep 26 2011, 10:09 AM) *
Oh, almost the way trophy wives are, gotcha. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


Well, if your trophy wives are vat-grown brainwashed hermaphrodites, then sure. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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CanRay
post Sep 26 2011, 02:23 PM
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Sounds like the perfect trophy wife for me. What's the name of this book/series? Author? How this applies to GridGuide?
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Draco18s
post Sep 26 2011, 02:24 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Sep 26 2011, 10:23 AM) *
Sounds like the perfect trophy wife for me. What's the name of this book/series? Author?


Well of Souls series by Jack Chalker.

QUOTE
How this applies to GridGuide?


It doesn't.
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hermit
post Sep 26 2011, 02:45 PM
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QUOTE
Personally, I think it's impossible to do anyway other then the inidividual vehicle way. People just enjoy their (illusion of) freedom too much.

It's theoretically doable in countries like Germany or the Netherlands, which, by American/Canadian standards are huge conurbations, but it's really flat out impossible in countries where the population density is as low as it is in the states, not to mention the "is there actually population there?" parts of Canada. I just don't see how this would improve anything, save for making the 1984 ecofascists happy because they have successfully oppressed everybody For The Greater Good.

What would make sense is an autopilot *option* for high-speed intercity/intracity roads. In controlled and half enclosed environments, computers can work reasonably well, and they do have the reaction times to make highspeed travel much more compact. However, outside such an environment, it's far from feasible that a computersized system would work well (maybe in 20, 30 years). Pretty much the Shadowrun GridGuide solution, actually.

That would, energetically, even be as sensible, if not better, than trains; if there're more than one passenger, cars generally are the most energy efficient way to get from A to B. Even compared to fully occupied trains, which is a rare occurrence.
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CanRay
post Sep 26 2011, 03:08 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Sep 26 2011, 09:45 AM) *
...not to mention the "is there actually population there?" parts of Canada.
Which, by US and European standards, is everywhere except Toronto, Calgary, and Vancouver. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Draco18s
post Sep 26 2011, 03:28 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Sep 26 2011, 11:08 AM) *
Which, by US and European standards, is everywhere except Toronto, Calgary, and Vancouver. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


Hey, now. Winnipeg has a few dozen folks, too!
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Kirk
post Sep 26 2011, 04:43 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Sep 26 2011, 10:45 AM) *
It's theoretically doable in countries like Germany or the Netherlands, which, by American/Canadian standards are huge conurbations, but it's really flat out impossible in countries where the population density is as low as it is in the states, not to mention the "is there actually population there?" parts of Canada. I just don't see how this would improve anything, save for making the 1984 ecofascists happy because they have successfully oppressed everybody For The Greater Good.

What would make sense is an autopilot *option* for high-speed intercity/intracity roads. In controlled and half enclosed environments, computers can work reasonably well, and they do have the reaction times to make highspeed travel much more compact. However, outside such an environment, it's far from feasible that a computersized system would work well (maybe in 20, 30 years). Pretty much the Shadowrun GridGuide solution, actually.

That would, energetically, even be as sensible, if not better, than trains; if there're more than one passenger, cars generally are the most energy efficient way to get from A to B. Even compared to fully occupied trains, which is a rare occurrence.


If you're going to load passengers in the car, you need to compare loaded trains. If you're not, it's better to compare existing to existing.

US DoE puts out a regular report on comparison. The most recent (link) has data up to 2009. Passenger rail in general is 2594 BTUs per passenger mile. Cars in general get 3538 BTUs per passenger mile. Cars does not include light trucks which are worse, or motorcycles which are better. (Table 2-12 on page 2-14 of link. See caveats for error of margin issues; this is averages.)
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hermit
post Sep 26 2011, 04:49 PM
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Actually, Georgia already seemed damn empty to me. Not to speak of the Midwest states. One hamlet every couple dozen kilometers ...

QUOTE
If you're going to load passengers in the car, you need to compare loaded trains. If you're not, it's better to compare existing to existing.

As I said, that's what I do.

QUOTE
Passenger rail in general is 2594 BTUs per passenger mile. Cars in general get 3538 BTUs per passenger mile.

Passenger miles in cars are calculated with one passenger in mind, not the maximum passengers. Passenger miles in trains always assume maximum load. Bear in mind, though, that cars usually do not accelerate and decelerate as much as a train does, which usually stop in every backwater along the way (this may be vastly different in the US, but in Germany, the idiotic federal system means a high speed bullet train has to brake to a fulls top every 70 kilometers because every state it passes needs to have an allotted number of stops - there goes your energy saving). A train wastes incredible amounts of energy braking, since we're talking about a mass in the thousands of tons here. If you can accelerate the train and power through from, say, New York to Ottawa, you're doing better than if you stop every 70 km to have passengers look at the empty train station of Hicksville, Backwater County, Nowhereland.

And please, use SI units, not Imperial. Outside the US, nobody uses Imperial.
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Kirk
post Sep 26 2011, 05:15 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Sep 26 2011, 12:49 PM) *
Actually, Georgia already seemed damn empty to me. Not to speak of the Midwest states. One hamlet every couple dozen kilometers ...


As I said, that's what I do.


Passenger miles in cars are calculated with one passenger in mind, not the maximum passengers. Passenger miles in trains always assume maximum load. Bear in mind, though, that cars usually do not accelerate and decelerate as much as a train does, which usually stop in every backwater along the way (this may be vastly different in the US, but in Germany, the idiotic federal system means a high speed bullet train has to brake to a fulls top every 70 kilometers because every state it passes needs to have an allotted number of stops - there goes your energy saving). A train wastes incredible amounts of energy braking, since we're talking about a mass in the thousands of tons here. If you can accelerate the train and power through from, say, New York to Ottawa, you're doing better than if you stop every 70 km to have passengers look at the empty train station of Hicksville, Backwater County, Nowhereland.

And please, use SI units, not Imperial. Outside the US, nobody uses Imperial.


False. Read the report, it's why I provided the link. Cars are based on a load factor of 1.55 passengers per vehicle. Train assumption is 25.8 passengers per vehicle. Neither is full load or even close to it. Both sets of numbers are based on existing, not ideal, performances.

And the reason for the units is that what's in the reports.
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Draco18s
post Sep 26 2011, 05:54 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Sep 26 2011, 12:49 PM) *
Actually, Georgia already seemed damn empty to me.


Try Delaware sometime.

There ain't NOTHIN' in Delaware.
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CanRay
post Sep 26 2011, 07:48 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Sep 26 2011, 11:49 AM) *
Actually, Georgia already seemed damn empty to me. Not to speak of the Midwest states. One hamlet every couple dozen kilometers ...
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Sep 26 2011, 12:54 PM) *
Try Delaware sometime.
Northern Ontario, you're lucky to have ANYTHING for one hundred kilometres, two hundred in some places. Above Gimli, Manitoba is pretty close to the same from what I remember of the map I have to semi-learn for my Government job, with the exception of Churchill, which is North enough to get Polar Bears.

I'm still trying to figure out where all the "Grasshoppers" from Saskatchewan are coming from. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (The license plates are green, and it's almost completely flat grassland, thus the nickname.).

...

Hey, how would Gridguide work on Ice Roads?
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Traul
post Sep 27 2011, 07:48 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Sep 26 2011, 05:49 PM) *
A train wastes incredible amounts of energy braking, since we're talking about a mass in the thousands of tons here.

The technology is already there to get that energy back. Now it's just tweaking and scaling to make it more efficient.
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