Unarmed Combat, Multiple Weapon Foci, and Ambidexterity, Simple Houserule/RAI Proposal Options

[PresentPresence]

Unarmed Combat is abstracted for the ease of the player: an skill test usually consists of multiple strikes and parries, with the result being a representation of how many hits landed, etc.
I want to run a character who uses two cyberarms that have been enchanted as Weapon foci. The first hurdle is that "only one focus can add to a dice pool on any given test."* What if I wanted to treat them as Dual-Wielded weapons and split my dice pool? That should let each arm get its respecitve bonus. However, the FAQ (yes, I know it can be contradictory) says that foci are not dice pool modifiers, and therefore are not added after the split. I could see that as being useful for, say, casting multiple spells, but it feels a little wonky for dual-wielding Weapon foci.
*As a side note, does that mean that I can only apply either my Power or my Spellcasting focus on a spellcasting test? That seems silly. I would assume that their intention was to prevent the use of multiple Power foci or multiple Spellcasting foci.
So let's say I houserule that enchanted weapons add their respective bonuses to a test after the split. For example, a character with Blades 3, Agility 3, and a Force 2 dagger Weapon focus and a Force 1 sword Weapon focus, gets 5 dice for his dagger's skill test and 4 for his sword's skill test, if he splits the pool evenly. But let's not forget that -2 penalty for the off-hand. Ambidextrous quality - boom.

Does this sound legitimate?

inb4 melee sucks

[EpicSpire]

Unarmed Combat is abstracted for the ease of the player: an skill test usually consists of multiple strikes and parries, with the result being a representation of how many hits landed, etc.
I want to run a character who uses two cyberarms that have been enchanted as Weapon foci. The first hurdle is that "only one focus can add to a dice pool on any given test."* What if I wanted to treat them as Dual-Wielded weapons and split my dice pool? That should let each arm get its respecitve bonus. However, the FAQ (yes, I know it can be contradictory) says that foci are not dice pool modifiers, and therefore are not added after the split. I could see that as being useful for, say, casting multiple spells, but it feels a little wonky for dual-wielding Weapon foci.
*As a side note, does that mean that I can only apply either my Power or my Spellcasting focus on a spellcasting test? That seems silly. I would assume that their intention was to prevent the use of multiple Power foci or multiple Spellcasting foci.
So let's say I houserule that enchanted weapons add their respective bonuses to a test after the split. For example, a character with Blades 3, Agility 3, and a Force 2 dagger Weapon focus and a Force 1 sword Weapon focus, gets 5 dice for his dagger's skill test and 4 for his sword's skill test, if he splits the pool evenly. But let's not forget that -2 penalty for the off-hand. Ambidextrous quality - boom.

Does this sound legitimate?

no, i would say you take the focus with the highest force add it to the Blades +Agility, and then split the pool. Mainly because if you have a normal weapon that happens to be str/2+3 and another weapon that is str/2 +1 you always use the highest DV, even if both rolls hit.

[Kirk]

Actually, the first hurdle is a GM who will say "Yes" to the idea of using cyberarms as weapons foci.

[PresentPresence]

no, i would say you take the focus with the highest force add it to the Blades +Agility, and then split the pool. Mainly because if you have a normal weapon that happens to be str/2+3 and another weapon that is str/2 +1 you always use the highest DV, even if both rolls hit.

Do you have a rules quote for this? That sounds pretty silly.

Actually, the first hurdle is a GM who will say "Yes" to the idea of using cyberarms as weapons foci.

Why not? Cyber implants can be enchanted before they are installed, and cyberarms have a damage code of STR/2P. What more does a GM need?

[Yerameyahu]

AFAIK, it's a house rule to allow weapon foci for 'Unarmed' under any circumstances, actually.

Yeah, I don't see anything in Arsenal about using the same DV for both attacks when wielding 2 weapons together. You make two totally separate attacks with a split dice pool.

[Paul]

Man talk about expensive. Better hope no one ever sticks those arms in the old wood chipper.

[Kirk]

Why not? Cyber implants can be enchanted before they are installed, and cyberarms have a damage code of STR/2P. What more does a GM need?

As your GM, I'd veto it under the principle that cyber is antithetical to magic. Cyber's installation destroys essence. Cyber leaves shadowy gaps in auras. Please, I invite you to show that cyber (specifically) can be enchanted and installed.

[PresentPresence]

It's an FAQ quote, so take it with a grain of salt:

Can you enchant cyberware and bioware? What about nanotech or genetech?

You can enchant cyberware, but this must be done before it is implanted (after it’s implanted, it’s a part of you). Such a focus would be considered Mundane Telesma (pp. 83-84, Street Magic). Bioware is a living material and may not be enchanted.

Also from the FAQ:

Can I have _____ as a focus? How much does it cost?

A focus can take any form: a ring, a dagger, a commlink, a cyberlimb, etc. For most foci, it is assumed the cost of the telesma (the physical basis of the focus) is incorporated in the cost of the focus. If the player wants the focus to be anything particularly large or expensive, however, then the cost of the item should be added to the cost of the focus.

Emphasis mine.

[Paul]

I wouldn't outright deny cyber as a focus-however I wouldn't make it easy or convenient. I also, and my players i think would agree, would take an approach reminiscent of Earthdawn Artificers.

[Kirk]

Grain of salt taken, and thank you.

Still twitchy enough I'd make it, well, difficult, but no longer impossible because of that. If you want I'll discuss what I'd do in that regard, but it's not your question and I'll not hijack the thread THAT badly (grin).

[Kirk]

To the original point: either you have one arm enchanted as one focus, or you have two arms enchanted as two foci. They are two separate objects.

Since you can only have one active focus at a time, the ability to dual attack is immaterial.

[PresentPresence]

To the original point: either you have one arm enchanted as one focus, or you have two arms enchanted as two foci. They are two separate objects.

Since you can only have one active focus at a time, the ability to dual attack is immaterial.

You can have (Logic) foci active at one time, and the houserule changes how they affect dice pools.

[PresentPresence]

Here's the character I created in karmagen, if anyone wants any context. It follows some special restrictions and is designed for a street-level campaign.

Donny "Double Decker" Douglas
Attributes

[ Spoiler ]

Metatype: Orc [20]

Primary Attributes: [180]
BOD 4
AGI 2 (Cyberlimbs have 7 each, Average with Legs and Torso is 5)
REA 4 (6)
STR 3 (Cyberlimbs have 7 each, Average with Legs and Torso is 4)
CHA 3
INT 4
LOG 2
WIL 4

Special Attributes: [90]
EDG 4
MAG 4 (2)
ESS 4

Qualities

[ Spoiler ]

Positive Qualities: [70]
Adept
The Warrior's Way
Ambidextrous
Fame (Local: Rising Star in Underground Boxing League)
Martial Arts 2 (Boxing: +2 DV for Unarmed Combat Attacks)

Negative Qualities: [-70]
Addiction (Mild: G3)
Addiction (Mild: Betel)
Day Job (10 Hrs/Wk: Boxer)
Distinctive Style 2 (Pink Mohawk)
Poor Self Control (Braggart; Thrill Seeker)

MA Maneuvers: [12]
Finishing Move
Full Offense
Set-Up (a.k.a. Rope-a-Dope)

Magic

[ Spoiler ]

Improved Reflexes 2 (Favored Power, Geas*) [1.25]
Improved Ability (Combat: Unarmed Combat) 2 (Geas) [.375]
Critical Strike 2 (Geas*) [.375]
*Ritual Geas - Speedbag Routine at Dawn

Bound Foci: [6]
2x Force 1 Weapon Foci

Skills

[ Spoiler ]

Skill Groups: [70]
Athletics 2
Influence 2
Stealth 2
Biotech 1

Active Skills: [88]
Unarmed Combat (Martial Arts +2) 5
Dodge (Melee Dodge +2) 3
Perception (Visual +2) 2
Intimidation (Physical +2) 2
Pistols 2
Pilot Ground Craft (Motorcycles +2) 1
Computer 1

Knowledge Skills: [36 - 18 = 18]
(L) English N
(L) Or'zet (Urban Lingo +2) 2
(L) Japanese (Urban Lingo +2) 2
(S) Area Knowledge: Seattle (Redmond +2) 2
(S) Gangs (Seattle +2) 2
(S) Underworld (Loansharking +2) 2
(S) Mafia (Politics +2) 2
(S) Yakuza (Politics +2) 2
(S) Gang Signs (Seattle +2) 2
(I) Sports (Boxing +2) 2

Resources

[ Spoiler ]

Gear: [46; In Debt: ¥5,000; Remaining: ¥4,000]
Middle Lifestyle (1 Month)
Obvious Full Cyberarm (Right)
-Customized Agility 5
-Customized Strength 5
-Enhanced Agility R2
-Enhanced Strength R2
-Enhanced Body R1
-Armor R1
-Taser
-Large Smuggling Compartment
-Case Lining
Obvious Full Cyberarm (Left)
-Customized Agility 5
-Customized Strength 5
-Enhanced Agility R2
-Enhanced Strength R2
-Enhanced Body R1
-Armor R1
-Shock Hand
-Commlink
-Sim Module
-Data Jack
Tooth Storage Compartment (Gold Plated)
Novatech Airware
-Armor Case R6
-Hardening R6
-Optimization (Analyze)
-Customized Interface
-Response Enhancer R2
-Nonstandard Wireless Link R6
-Iris Orb OS
-Agent R3
-Adaptability R3
-Homeground R3
-Basic User+ Package
Subvocal Microphone
AR Gloves
Micro-Transceiver R4
Ares Predator IV
-Skinlink
-Personalized Grip
-Gas Vent 3
-15 Stick-n-Shock Rounds (HP)
-Spare Clip w/ 15 Explosive Rounds (HP)
Concealable Holster
Contact Lenses R1
-Flare Compensation
-Skinlink
Glasses R4
-Image Link
-Smartlink
-Vision Enhancement R3
-Skinlink
Earbuds R3
-Audio Enhancement R3
-Spatial Recognizer
DocWagon Contract: Basic (One Year)
Medkit R6
10x Betel
4x NoPaint
16x G3
2x Weapon Focus R1

Contacts

[ Spoiler ]

Total: [32 - 12 = 20]
Phil E. Gree - Agent, Small-Time Fixer (C3/L2)
-Phil works primarily as an agent and talent scout for potential fresh meat for Seattle's underground Boxing League. He supplements his income by slinging goods that cater to street toughs. He has connections to the Gianelli Mafia Family and sometimes hires out First Nations gangers for his dirty work, usually involving getting money out of loaners. Donny has participated in a couple of these jobs, and it has never quite settled with him.
Jag Wire - Street-Wise Pimp (C2/L3)
-Jag is your stereotypical orxploitation pimp. He wears his floppy red pimp hat with pride, complete with its cheetah-print band and peacock feather. He is an affiliate of the Crimson Crush, and trades sex and BTLs in exchange for protection. He taught Donny the street smarts that helped him survive the mean streets of the Redmond Barrens.
Patches - Street Doc (C2/L4)
-Patches is an old friend of Donny's, and he operates a clinic in the Barrens that offers many free services to those in need. He is skilled enough and has the equipment to both heal wounds and implant cyber, and makes extra money by selling legal drugs like Corp Candy. He might have some less legal stuff in the backroom...

[ Spoiler ]

[Seerow]

1) Why not instead of taking Ambidexterous, taking Off-Hand Training martial arts maneuver? That does the same thing and saves you a little bp. You could even try to bump up your martial arts 1 further to get an extra +1 dv and 2 more potential maneuvers. (Two Weapon Style is a great one, letting you go full defense without spending an action any time you have an offhand weapon. You take the offhand penalty for doing so, but since you have off hand training, there is no penalty)

2) Why take dodge skill at all? You can use your unarmed combat in melee for blocking, which is better than your melee dodge even with the specialization. At range, you use athletics for gymnastic dodge, which is only 1 die less. Seems like a waste of BP unless I'm missing something.

3) You have the cost for your bound weapon foci as 6. Isn't bonding a focus at chargen only force in BP? So that should only be 2 BP, not 6.

4) Not that it really matters, but you have a Rating 3 earbud, with only 2 capacity used. It's a very minor detail, but feels wasteful.

5) How is it your limbs have the same str and agility, and agility starts lower, but agility averages higher? Shouldn't strength average out higher?

[PresentPresence]

1) Why not instead of taking Ambidexterous, taking Off-Hand Training martial arts maneuver? That does the same thing and saves you a little bp. You could even try to bump up your martial arts 1 further to get an extra +1 dv and 2 more potential maneuvers. (Two Weapon Style is a great one, letting you go full defense without spending an action any time you have an offhand weapon. You take the offhand penalty for doing so, but since you have off hand training, there is no penalty)

2) Why take dodge skill at all? You can use your unarmed combat in melee for blocking, which is better than your melee dodge even with the specialization. At range, you use athletics for gymnastic dodge, which is only 1 die less. Seems like a waste of BP unless I'm missing something.

3) You have the cost for your bound weapon foci as 6. Isn't bonding a focus at chargen only force in BP? So that should only be 2 BP, not 6.

4) Not that it really matters, but you have a Rating 3 earbud, with only 2 capacity used. It's a very minor detail, but feels wasteful.

5) How is it your limbs have the same str and agility, and agility starts lower, but agility averages higher? Shouldn't strength average out higher?

1) That's a good suggestion.
2) Another good suggestion.
3) Karmagen.
4) Good catch. You saved me 10 nuyen.
5) Whoops. AGI averages 4, STR 5.

[Kirk]

You can have (Logic) foci active at one time, and the houserule changes how they affect dice pools.

I misstated what I meant, and for that I apologize.

I was thinking of the "one focus per dice pool" rule, SR4A 199. Your house rule will nullify that in circumstances where they are applied to separate sub-pools after a split.

So if I'm getting it right, the core question is: can you split unarmed combat if you've got two cyberarms? (or rather, can you do it without yet another house rule saying so). The purpose is to either attack two separate targets (or the same target twice) OR to get to use two separate foci.

The FAQ (when discussing using two shock gloves) would imply yes. Your house rule negates the 'one focus per dice pool' rule in this situation.

It increases the combat strength of the cyberlimbed character even more than 'just a focus', shifting the balance slightly. If the GM thinks that is either necessary or not a significant problem, then there is no problem. That is the nature of house rules.

I'm uncomfortable with it, but I'm not your GM.

[Seerow]

3) Karmagen.

What houserules with the karmagen? I missed that, assuming it was bp after seeing the cost for Orc. By default karmagen has metahuman costs for free.

4) Good catch. You saved me 10 nuyen.

Yeah like I said it was a incredibly nitpicky thing. But I saw it and had to say something (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[PresentPresence]

Houserules:

[ Spoiler ]

• All characters have 550 Karma Points and can only use 225 for standard attributes.
• German Errata is used.
• Max Natural Attributes are 5 + racial modifiers. Max Magic is 4, Edge is 4/5 for humans.
• Skills are capped at 3 with one at 5 or two at 4.
• Max base starting cash is 150k and Born Rich is not allowed. In Debt may be taken but it does not provide any KP.
• Gear is capped at 8 availability, with an exception for a hot-sim modified sim module, which is normally 12. Restricted Gear is not allowed.
• All characters are SINless and do not have access to fake SINs, but they may earn a legal or fake one during play (plot sensitive).
• Changelings are capped at Class 1. A character can take one metagenetic quality for 10 KP and a Gene Freak quality for a 10 KP bonus (minor deformity that can be covered up, -1 to social interactions when it is visible) or a total of 20 KPs of metagenetic qualities and a Gene Freak quality for a 20 KP bonus (major deformity that is not easily covered, -2 to social interactions when it is visible, -1 when it is obscured, and +1 to Intimidation tests when it is visible). This is the nature of the Redmond Barrens, after all. These qualities do count toward the 70 KP maximum.
• All characters start out with the School of Hard Knocks quality for free, and it does not count toward the 70 KP maximum.
• Characters get Charisma x 4 in free Contact KPs.
• Characters get (Logic + Intuition) x 3 in free Knowledge Skill KPs.

[PresentPresence]

Actually, after looking over the Martial Arts rules again...

Why not instead of taking Ambidexterous, taking Off-Hand Training martial arts maneuver? That does the same thing and saves you a little bp. You could even try to bump up your martial arts 1 further to get an extra +1 dv and 2 more potential maneuvers. (Two Weapon Style is a great one, letting you go full defense without spending an action any time you have an offhand weapon. You take the offhand penalty for doing so, but since you have off hand training, there is no penalty)

Off-Hand Training can't be taken for Unarmed Combat. Two Weapon Style is for melee weapons, and I wouldn't call a cyberarm a melee weapon, just as I wouldn't call your hand or hardliner gloves melee weapons.

[Seerow]

Actually, after looking over the Martial Arts rules again...Off-Hand Training can't be taken for Unarmed Combat. Two Weapon Style is for melee weapons, and I wouldn't call a cyberarm a melee weapon, just as I wouldn't call your hand or hardliner gloves melee weapons.

You're already bending the rules to call your cyberarms weapon foci, to get around the inability to enchant your unarmed strikes. If you're calling each cyberarm a melee weapon for purposes of being a weapon focus, I see no reason they wouldn't be treated as different weapons for two weapon style or offhand training.

[PresentPresence]

This houserule is a little unbalancing as it is - I don't want to add too much more cheese. The cyberarm is exactly that - an arm. It's not even an extension of my arm. It's also why I wouldn't apply the bonus to my Shock Glove implant - it's not what's enchanted. Now, the real question is how these are handled if I smoke some Deepweed... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Critias]

This houserule is a little unbalancing as it is...

Then why are you doing it?

Honestly, Unarmed adepts are just fine as-is (inasmuch as any adepts are just fine), thanks to Critical Strike. The fact your GM's already letting you double dip into Ways and Geasa at the same time means he's already doing you something of a favor. But you keep piling it on.

For a game that's supposed to be "street level," I think you're abusing things a bit at this point. Dumping Agility (but then making up for it with swanky arms), using Ways and Geasa (to make up for the campaign's Magic cap), using your arms not only as platforms to make up for your dumped Agility but also to create Unarmed weapon foci, dipping into Martial Arts for more damage, wanting to get the best possible interpretation of two-weapon fighting (for unarmed) to maximize all these various bonus dice you've scraped up, etc, etc... I might let some of that stuff fly in a standard game, but all of it in one where the GM's expressly asked for it to be "street level" and has custom rules in there to keep things (his idea of) reasonable... I dunno, man.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear a resounding no from the GM, regardless of what Dumpshock says.

You've got a strong theme to your character, and that sort of thing, which is cool. But I think you might be bending over the spirit of the campaign, with yet more optional/house rulings in your favor. You're already stretching things just stacking optional rules, and you're doing it over and over and over again. There've been pretty bloody threads around here about any weapon focus for Unarmed, any two-weapon stuff for Unarmed, and you're stacking, like, all of the controversy onto one character, in a "street level" game.

[Mardrax]

Amen.

I'd boot that character right back to the drawing board. Cyberlimbs of awesome are a tough enough sell as it is in a street level game. Add cheesing them up with Foci and getting around the inability to dual-wield Unarmed and you're dead set on a powergame trip.

Also, even if the GM doesn't object, consider the effect a character like this has on a game. Especially see the reports Hyphz has been giving us on his games with powergamers in a medium-level opposition game.

[PresentPresence]

It may sound like I'm trying to get a Force 2 Weapon Focus in a game where you can only get Force 1 Foci, which is, to be honest, one of my motives, it's not total cheese, and only unbalanced in the sense that I'm slightly better than other unarmed combatants. I'm basically using a 5 BP quality to get one more die, and I suppose the ability to punch two goons at once without a modifier. What do I really want out of this rule though? A way to make my character cooler without making play less fun for my teammates. I'm not Johnny Instakill, my job is to wait for the gunbunny to soften up the opposition with suppressive fire while I mosey on up while they're distracted by bullets and bop them on the head - with style. But if that's my one job, I should be able to do it well. Almost all of the crunch of this character is rooted in fluff, and every attribute is a reflection of his story. The last thing that I want my GM to think is that I'm a powergamer. If he swats me down, if he thinks I'll unbalance the run, fine.
As for the cyberarms of awesome, you ain't seen nothing. Did I take Genetic Optimization, Metagenetic Improvement, Bulk Modification, Optimized Cyberlimbs, etc. etc.? No, because that's not what this character is about. I took BOTH arms, costing me a full two points of adept powers. I supplemented these lost points with geas. Why? Because my character, at his core, is insecure. All of his flash is meant to hide the truth that he is a clumsy, weak, wimp of an orc, and his limbs are a crutch. An effective crutch, but a crutch none the less. Ideal character development would involve the removal of the cyberlimbs and genetic restoration of essence.
I would list the dicepool and damage differences between unarmed combat and a shootout, but you guys already know the discrepancies. I'm not saying they should be close, but in a world where man meets magic and machine, an adept should be able to bring his cyberfists to a gun fight and maybe make it out alive. Is that so ridiculous?

[Critias]

I'm not here to argue with you, I'm just saying that -- stylistic questions aside -- you should be aware that you're probably pushing your luck. Just because it could be worse, doesn't mean it's not kind of cheesy, and you said so yourself. Were I you, I'd just be willing to admit you're bending an awful lot of rules, and I'd be prepared for a GM to say "no." I'm not saying he should, I'm not saying he shouldn't, I'm saying it's a possibility and if I was presenting this character for a GM to okay, I'd be ready to make some changes.