 Using Forgery |
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 Oct 7 2011, 05:04 PM
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#51
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Prime Runner Ascendant  Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022  |
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 7 2011, 09:14 AM)  TJ, yes. Duh. You say that with some authority. I have my doubts... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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Oct 7 2011, 05:51 PM
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#52
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
It's part of the premise, you have to assume it. The function of the machine is to copy. Copying does not require emotion. The purpose of a forgery is to *be* a copy; see above. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) There is no such thing as a 'technically perfect' forgery that lacks emotion, because its entire physical (and therefore only) existence is 'technical'.
Now, if we were talking about *creating* 'undiscovered' Monet forgeries, that would be totally different. We're not. |
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Oct 7 2011, 06:09 PM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 583 Joined: 1-October 09 From: France Member No.: 17,693 |
While the drone mentioned above *may* be able to duplicate a given painting, it would probably need quite some trials and errors (like a human copyist) to get the right motions to replicate the effect.
Also I don't think it would be able to handle a very important part for a high-end forgery : the knowledge of the right support, tools, pigments and other materials (or what to use to replace them convincingly) to fool experts. But for a "run-off-the-mill" forgery - say the kind you put in place of the original you just stole to delay the discovery of a theft. [EDIT] Missing the end of the sentence : But for a "run-off-the-mill" forgery - say the kind you put in place of the original you just stole to delay the discovery of a theft it's certainly adequate. [/EDIT] |
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Oct 7 2011, 06:15 PM
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#54
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
I guess that depends on the Autosoft and the dice rolls. I'm not saying the machine is a master forger (which implies all those material aspects you mention). I'm just saying there's no such thing as 'emotion' in the painting. If the materials are right, and the copy is 'technically perfect', there is nothing left to say.
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Oct 7 2011, 06:34 PM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 582 Joined: 13-April 08 Member No.: 15,881 |
QUOTE (Midas @ Oct 7 2011, 10:05 AM) Just had a thought: Artisan (Painting) + Forgery + Fine Art knowledge skill = Guy who can forge a Monet? Except it'll take less than a minute of examination to declare it to be a forgery. Just as an off-hand dicepool for (and very much in favor of) the forger 5(+2) + 4 + 5 + 4 (Int, Log, or Agi) + 2 (good tools)= 22 dice Assume the improbable happens and the person rolls 20 successes and creates a world-class forgery. He tries to sell it to an art gallery or collector who insists on having it checked. The picture is sent off to be checked and ends up in the hands of an inspector who is a real dingus. 3 (Log) + 6 (Forgery 4, Detection specialization), + 5 (Various inspection instruments) = 14 dice The guy may not be able to pick his nose and walk at the same time, but he WILL build up enough hits on an Extended Test to hit 20 and find it to be a forgery. So unless you can convince the gallery owner or collector to NOT have it inspected, you've just engaged in a massive waste of time. |
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Oct 7 2011, 06:41 PM
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#56
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Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699 |
This is why I'm a fan of degrading dicepool whenever a extended check is being made that should have a real chance of failing.
-k |
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Oct 7 2011, 06:44 PM
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#57
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
14 DP isn't small, though. The guy *is* an expert, professional forgery detector, with specialization. Tools +5? Man.
Anyway, where are you looking? SR4A says 'Perception + Intuition test' (no mention of Extended, instead 'Opposed'), and vaguely mentions GM-optional gear bonuses. |
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Oct 7 2011, 06:45 PM
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#58
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 10-September 11 From: Lyon, FRANCE Member No.: 37,728 |
You seem to assume that the expert makes an extended test and the forger does not. It doesn't seem right to me. The forger will probably spend hours on his work, why wouldn't he also make an extended test ?
Edit : nice, we all post at the same time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) |
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Oct 9 2011, 04:17 AM
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#59
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,657 Joined: 29-October 06 Member No.: 9,731 |
While inventorying an office-supply store this evening, I thought of a use for Forgery: ID badges. The very fact that purely electronic ID is so easy to spoof, and physical badges are so cheap to make, ensures their continuing use. They may have an RFID chip inside, but outwardly they'd look basically the same as they do today: a rectangular plastic blivet with the person's name, title, and photograph on it. If you don't have a badge, the guards don't let you in. Simple as that. So you either steal one, or forge one.
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Oct 9 2011, 04:21 AM
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#60
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
You mean like:
QUOTE The Forgery skill may be used for a number of illicit purposes, such as:
• Forging or doctoring hardcopy ID, permits, or official paperwork. |
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Oct 9 2011, 02:26 PM
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#61
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Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 8 2011, 10:21 PM) You mean like: Exactly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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Oct 10 2011, 07:47 AM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 165 Joined: 3-March 09 From: A top-secret federal party facility. Member No.: 16,929 |
Once used forgery to aid in impersonating Damien Knight. An aide stepped in with a few documents to sign...
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Oct 12 2011, 02:52 AM
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#63
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 662 Joined: 25-May 11 Member No.: 30,406 |
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 7 2011, 03:57 PM) QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 7 2011, 09:00 AM) If it's a *forgery*, it's a copy. Perfect is the goal. For it to be perfect, it must have the same impact. Can a machine generate that? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I am with TJ here. Even if you could fully analyze a painting in order of strokes and then length and strength in each stroke and then get a drone with mechanical hand to do it, the result would be "cold", i.e. lacking in emotion, and therefore obviously a fake even to the untrained eye ... at least that's how it would be in my game. Decided there is wa-ay too much knowledge and skill required to forge a painting enough to fool experts a la long con for a runner, but Art Forger might be an interesting contact for a con man to have ... |
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Oct 12 2011, 02:56 AM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 662 Joined: 25-May 11 Member No.: 30,406 |
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Oct 9 2011, 04:17 AM) While inventorying an office-supply store this evening, I thought of a use for Forgery: ID badges. The very fact that purely electronic ID is so easy to spoof, and physical badges are so cheap to make, ensures their continuing use. They may have an RFID chip inside, but outwardly they'd look basically the same as they do today: a rectangular plastic blivet with the person's name, title, and photograph on it. If you don't have a badge, the guards don't let you in. Simple as that. So you either steal one, or forge one. This is what I mean about the Forgery skill. Not just Credsticks and SINs, more ID badges and warehouse procurement orders ... although you do need some computing skills to add biometric data for the ID and orders on the system to procurement document to make them appear more legit. |
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Oct 12 2011, 03:09 AM
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#65
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Nope, that's crap, Midas. If you're duplicating the painting, you're by-definition duplicating any 'emotion' in it; that 'emotion' is physically present, because it's a dead pile of paint. If you're saying the painting could be poorly copied, yes. But it could be poorly copied in *any* way, including too much 'emotion', or any other errors.
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Oct 12 2011, 03:10 AM
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#66
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Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 11 2011, 09:09 PM) Nope, that's crap, Midas. If you're duplicating the painting, you're by-definition duplicating any 'emotion' in it; that 'emotion' is physically present, because it's a dead pile of paint. If you're saying the painting could be poorly copied, yes. But it could be poorly copied in *any* way, including too much 'emotion', or any other errors. Why is that crap, Yerameyahu? Just because it disagrees with your stance? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I have yet to see a machine capable of creative thought and purpose in the process of painting. With a copy, "Something" will be missing, even if it is technically correct. |
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Oct 12 2011, 03:15 AM
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#67
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
I don't have a stance. A painting is a physical artifact. Copying it means producing a duplicate. No creativity is involved. In fact, 'creatively' copying something means 'failure to copy'; a remix, at best. You two are talking about magic, or possibly religion.
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Oct 12 2011, 03:16 AM
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#68
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Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 11 2011, 09:15 PM) I don't have a stance. A painting is a physical artifact. Copying it means producing a duplicate. You two are talking about magic. I think that you do, since you keep bringing it up... and, Ummmmm.... No, I'm Not... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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Oct 12 2011, 03:17 AM
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#69
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Then what are you talking about? An ineffable "something" that doesn't physically exist, is what you've said.
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Oct 12 2011, 03:22 AM
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#70
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Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 11 2011, 08:17 PM) Then what are you talking about? An ineffable "something" that doesn't physically exist, is what you've said. Humnanity has a Spark that a Machine just cannot reproduce. It DOES exist, and machines cannot adequately reproduce it. Nothing "Magical" about that at all. |
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Oct 12 2011, 03:25 AM
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#71
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Yes, there is. You're talking about fantasy. But, as I've explained several times, it's totally irrelevant.
We're not talking about machines creating art, or anything else. No one said a machine could be Monet. We're talking about duplicating a physical artifact. There is no 'spark' in duplication. |
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Oct 12 2011, 03:26 AM
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#72
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Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 11 2011, 08:25 PM) Yes, there is. You're talking about fantasy. But, as I've explained several times, it's totally irrelevant. We're not talking about machines creating art, or anything else. No one said a machine could be Monet. We're talking about duplicating a physical artifact. There is no 'spark' in duplication. And I say that that SPARK is lost when a Machine attempts to Duplicate it. Stalemate... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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Oct 12 2011, 03:28 AM
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#73
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
More magical thinking. There is nothing in the painting that is not physical; this is given. The machine can (we're assuming) duplicate physical things. An illiterate man can duplicate a page of Shakespeare.
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Oct 12 2011, 03:31 AM
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#74
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Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 11 2011, 08:28 PM) More magical thinking. There is nothing in the painting that is not physical; this is given. The machine can (we're assuming) duplicate physical things. An illiterate man can duplicate a page of Shakespeare. As I said, Stalemate. We will not convince each other... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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Oct 12 2011, 03:33 AM
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#75
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
There's no convincing. One is a fact, the other is a faith.
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