Why "Karma" ? Options

[silva]

Is there some explanation (in-game or not) for the use of the term "Karma" for the game´s experience pionts ? What the devs had in mind when they came up with it?

[CanRay]

In the older versions, there was more uses for Karma than just EXP. Edge took over some of those roles in 4th Ed.

And, also, they didn't want to be AD&D. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Paul]

I don't think I've ever seen anything that explicitly states why Bob Charrette, Paul Hume, Tom Dowd, Jordan Weisman, L. Ross Babcock III, Sam Lewis and Dave Wylie did this in 1st edition SR. ( I have my copy open in front of me!) But yeah basically they didn't want to XP points, and I believe-and this is just a SWAG (Systematic Wild Ass Guess) on my part but Karma can cut both ways, and represents sort of the flow of luck in a similar fashion to the way Magic is believed to operate in Shadowrun. And since it's a little more versatile than just determining what "Level" you are, I think it works.

[Stalag]

In the older versions, there was more uses for Karma than just EXP. Edge took over some of those roles in 4th Ed.

Actually a lot of initiate powers still use Karma

And, also, they didn't want to be AD&D. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Anything to be different... such as the use of the feminine pronoun throughout all the books instead of the standard male pronoun. So PC of them...

Strictly speaking though, Karma is somewhat fitting. To be true to the concept of the word, however, characters would earn good Karma and bad Karma and it would work similar to Edge (though knowing when to apply the bad Karma would be tricky) but then character advancement would have to be handled another way

[Paul]

Actually a lot of initiate powers still use Karma

And to be fair Karma still can do more than just "Level Up."

Anything to be different... such as the use of the feminine pronoun throughout all the books instead of the standard male pronoun. So PC of them...

You kind of make this seem real cynical. I guess I never really noticed this, and now that you point it out I guess it doesn't bother me.

[Stalag]

You kind of make this seem real cynical. I guess I never really noticed this, and now that you point it out I guess it doesn't bother me.

A little bit I guess and if it was a common practice or switched back and forth I probably wouldn't notice - but flipping the common pronoun in a whole series of books when doing so has really nothing to do with the actual subject matter in the book strikes me as PC grandstanding. Honestly, even then I really don't care that much, it just made for some disjointed reading at first as I unconsciously tried to figure out if the writer literally meant a specific female, just female characters, or if they were implying most runners were female.

If they were really in a twist about using "he" they could always have gone with "they" instead...

[Kirk]

No. They is plural, he and she are singular.

[Halflife]

No. They is plural, he and she are singular.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

[BishopMcQ]

"They" is the third person plural form. (You cannot say "They is" for example) English doesn't have a third person neutral which can be applied to people. ("It" only applies to non-living objects like corpses.) "He" was the gender neutral standard for many years, but there was a growing movement to emasculate the language and apply the feminine as the standard.

Linguists argue about this type of thing regularly. Some languages have a gender neutral form, but it generally applies to a more global concept, such as the role of "one" in the following statement: one's relationship to society is determined through one's actions and appearance.

There's a disclaimer in some gaming books where "he" will refer to the GM and "she" will refer to players, unless specific names are used to denote gender. I don't believe Shadowrun included one, but it was discussed behind the scenes a bit.

Back to the OP: Prior to 4th Edition, Karma awards were added to the characters Good Karma, as a reflection of total amount earned. Every 10th or 20th point was transferred instead to the Karma Pool, which functioned like Edge. You could earn karma for shooting people in the face, but special bonuses could be earned for doing good things. Beyond the "Exp," my supposition is that they wanted to remind you that even though many runners do "bad things" they can actually be "good people" if they want to. Maintaining their humanity and goodness against the overwhelming swell of megacorps is part of the cyberpunk genre.

[Kirk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

A long-contested position. As the wiki entry phrases it after several classical usages: However, in some of these sentences, there is a component of pluralness in the meaning of "they".

They, for common usage, implies pluralness.

I'll add that at the time I heard one particular group complaining of the feminine generic. They were, bluntly, misogynists. As a rule they were the type that though not only that women didn't play these sorts of games but shouldn't play these sorts of games, and any nod otherwise was "offensively PC". It has left me, I admit, with a biased perception of those who complain about how PC various word choices might be.

[Yerameyahu]

Singular they is, and has been for centuries, totally acceptable. You use plural conjugations with it, but this fact doesn't alter the use. You use the same conjugations for 'you' (singular or plural).

It is no better to use 'she' than 'he', so if 'he' is a problem, 'she' is a problem.

[Stalag]

They, for common usage, implies pluralness.

Which is fine. So write in the plural:

"The rigger tends to work with multiple drones by the seat of her pants: jumping into one here, sending groups there, managing a fluid situation with disperse assets. To do this effectively, she needs to be able to communicate with her drones."

becomes

"Riggers tend to work with multiple drones by the seat of their pants: jumping into one here, sending groups there, managing a fluid situation with disperse assets. To do this effectively, they need to be able to communicate with their drones."

I'll add that at the time I heard one particular group complaining of the feminine generic. They were, bluntly, misogynists. As a rule they were the type that though not only that women didn't play these sorts of games but shouldn't play these sorts of games, and any nod otherwise was "offensively PC".

And I'm not one of those - I wish more females played. (and no, not because I'm lonely or even single (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ). I'm a huge believer in women's rights - I just find something like solely using the feminine pronoun to be a childish "thumb my nose at the giant misogynistic conspiracy" kind of move. Is the common use of the male pronoun in non-gender specific text a legacy of 10,000 years of largely patriarchal cultures? Sure - as a male I apologize on behalf of our gender for the entire history of our species. If the SR books are the battle ground they wanted to chose to strike a blow at modern literature, however, the correct move would have been to swap back and forth or write in the plural. Discarding the masculine all together (with the exception of some of the examples) is, at best, sinking down to the the misogynists level.

[Kirk]

If it sounds like I was accusing you of being 'one of those' I apologize. I'm merely noting during the late 80's the constant frothing on the issue from certain individuals was such that the phrasing is indelibly tied to them in my mind.

and Yerameyahu, not "totally" acceptable. Used as an alternative for the generic, yes. But it is much more frequently used for the generic plural.

[silva]

Beyond the "Exp," my supposition is that they wanted to remind you that even though many runners do "bad things" they can actually be "good people" if they want to. Maintaining their humanity and goodness against the overwhelming swell of megacorps is part of the cyberpunk genre.

Interesting angle. Didnt think about it before.

Essence measures the humanity you manage to retain despite a increasingly techological world, while (good) Karma measures the moral/goodness you manage to mantain against a increasingly imoral/callous/egoistic society.

Cool.

[Stalag]

If it sounds like I was accusing you of being 'one of those' I apologize. I'm merely noting during the late 80's the constant frothing on the issue from certain individuals

And, even today, there's a segment of the male population in the US (and the majority of the male population of the rest of the world) that see women as chattel or worse...
That we have been able to survive as a species boggles the mind.... though this is totally derailing the thread

[CanRay]

At least English doesn't give items a sex. French threw me completely. Why is a Tree male while a Table female? Did the carpenter do a SRS on the tree when he built the table?

Beyond the "Exp," my supposition is that they wanted to remind you that even though many runners do "bad things" they can actually be "good people" if they want to. Maintaining their humanity and goodness against the overwhelming swell of megacorps is part of the cyberpunk genre.

Yeah, the whole measure of "What makes a Human-human?" and all that which is one of the main cornerstones of good Cyberpunk. Good catch!

[Jazz]

At least English doesn't give items a sex. French threw me completely. Why is a Tree male while a Table female?

You're asking why the sky is blue, to me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Greek/Latin language all have item-gender and no neutral pronouns and surprinsingly, 90%+ of genders are the same between spanish/italian and french. I don't know for romanian and greek.

Latin roots I guess.

When I was young I didn't understand why english speakers kept putting Le/La in front of every french words they tell (even the ones that take a L', like Amour for exemple, come one that grammar rule is dumb !). It's like saying "the" in front of each word you use, that's kind of stupid. I guessed now it's how french is teached (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

My apologizes to have a such complicated language to learn. At least it's not german ! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[CanRay]

Who says I learned it? Only reason I didn't fail French in High School was because you actively had to work at failing French to do it.

I'd have loved to have taken Latin as my second language course, but they stopped teaching it the year I arrived in High School.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

And I'm not one of those - I wish more females played. (and no, not because I'm lonely or even single (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ). I'm a huge believer in women's rights - I just find something like solely using the feminine pronoun to be a childish "thumb my nose at the giant misogynistic conspiracy" kind of move. Is the common use of the male pronoun in non-gender specific text a legacy of 10,000 years of largely patriarchal cultures? Sure - as a male I apologize on behalf of our gender for the entire history of our species. If the SR books are the battle ground they wanted to chose to strike a blow at modern literature, however, the correct move would have been to swap back and forth or write in the plural. Discarding the masculine all together (with the exception of some of the examples) is, at best, sinking down to the the misogynists level.

I, for one, do not apologize for the fact that I have a penis as my father before me and his father before, etc, etc, etc...
That being said, women are the best and the worst invention ever right after the wheel.

At least English doesn't give items a sex. French threw me completely. Why is a Tree male while a Table female? Did the carpenter do a SRS on the tree when he built the table?

In portuguese (also a latin language), both of those are feminine nouns.

Who says I learned it? Only reason I didn't fail French in High School was because you actively had to work at failing French to do it.

As I'm learning french right now to request an immigrant visa for Canada I find amusing that english native speakers have some difficult learning french considering that more than half of english words were stolen, er, borrowed from french words. Seriously, anytime I learn a new french word that is not similar to a portuguese word, I think if there is something similar in english, if there is, there's a 99% chance of both words sharing the same meaning.

Now, back to the topic at hand. Yes, karma in older editions had a lot of uses besides representing your experience, and you always gained extra karma everytime you did something "for the children".

[CanRay]

Gave a good reason for "Hooding" Shaodwruns, actually. I might give a Karma bonus for doing things like that if I ever run a campaign again, actually.

Honestly, a lot of systems use different names for "Experience" when they're not using a class-based system. Deadlands, for example, had "Bounty" (Because of it's Western feel, even after the Supernatural Atomic Bombs went off), which was measured in poker chips. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I have a strong preference to Classless systems as it lets me grow my character in any direction I want, even from the start. I hated Star Wars D20 in all it's flavors due to the fact that I wasn't a "Back Of Beyond Tramp Freighter Captain" like in D6, instead I was a "Level 7 Scoundrel, Level 2 Flying Ace, Level 1 Gunslinger" or some such thing.

[Larsine]

Anything to be different... such as the use of the feminine pronoun throughout all the books instead of the standard male pronoun. So PC of them...

That was actually not in the 1st edition rules, IIRC it was not introduced until SR4.

PC, was a Player Character back in 1989.

[hermit]

Is there some explanation (in-game or not) for the use of the term "Karma" for the game´s experience pionts ? What the devs had in mind when they came up with it?

It was the 80s, dude.

[Mayhem_2006]

Karma makes more sense for this system than "experience" as you spend it.

In D&D, your power is dependent on how much experience you *have*. You don't spend it, so a long term adventurer has "lots of experience".

In shadowrun, your power is dependent on how much karma you have *spent*. If they called it experience instead of karma, yu would find that a long term shadowrunner has very little "experience" as he keeps spending it on improving abilities.

Philosophically, Karma makes more sense to describe something that you earn and spend.

[Kirk]

That was actually not in the 1st edition rules, IIRC it was not introduced until SR4.

PC, was a Player Character back in 1989.

It's prevalent through the 3d edition. Not constant by the way - I've found masculine and feminine used - but there are plenty of feminine pronouns used for generics.

Can't speak for any before that as I don't have copies to check.

[hermit]

It started around the time SoNA was released, IIRC.