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[Machiavelli]

Good Morning Dumpshockers,

i am reanimating the idea of a BC-creating spell for defense purposes. I already thought about it but up to now it didn´t work well rule-wise. What i basically want is an instant-effect, sustaining spell that creates a BC at a rating of the successes rolled. Centre of effect is the magician so that he is influenced as well. Of course you need to have at least magic 1 left after the effect takes in to sustain it. You cannot aspect the rating to your tradition, so it is really only for defensive purposes and to keep spirits away from you if things go FUBAR. I don´t have my books at hand and the last try to calculate the drain was below the drain for mana static. Don´t know if the GM allows it. Can you help?

[Loch]

I can point you to Mana Static, a spell which does exactly this; it's in Street Magic, on p. 173.

[Machiavelli]

Naa, not really. Mana Static is a permanent area-of-effect spell that needs a certain time to become effective. Also you can´t walk around easily with it, you would need to spend an action to switch the AOE within LOS.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Naa, not really. Mana Static is a permanent area-of-effect spell that needs a certain time to become effective. Also you can´t walk around easily with it, you would need to spend an action to switch the AOE within LOS.

So, the one thing that keeps it somewhat balanced you do not like? Hmmm............ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
Besides, why would you want to walk around in it? Unless you are using an Aspected Mana Static, you are hurting yourself doing it.

[Mardrax]

So, the one thing that keeps it somewhat balanced you do not like? Hmmm............ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
Besides, why would you want to walk around in it? Unless you are using an Aspected Mana Static, you are hurting yourself doing it.

Some people (and I do believe I saw Machiavelli saying he's one of them less than a week ago) believe being in an area with Background Count works to reduce Force for incoming spells.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Some people (and I do believe I saw Machiavelli saying he's one of them less than a week ago) believe being in an area with Background Count works to reduce Force for incoming spells.

Does not mean that it is a correct belief.

[Neraph]

Naa, not really. Mana Static is a permanent area-of-effect spell that needs a certain time to become effective. Also you can´t walk around easily with it, you would need to spend an action to switch the AOE within LOS.

Not exactly. It is permanent when sustained for the time requried... until then it is still in effect, just sustained and not permanent.

[Stalag]

Naa, not really. Mana Static is a permanent area-of-effect spell that needs a certain time to become effective. Also you can´t walk around easily with it, you would need to spend an action to switch the AOE within LOS.

Your alternative is to Surge and take Astral Hazing and then you won't even need to sustain it. Of course you can't turn it off either and it tends to grow if you stand still for any extended period of time.

That's the thing about BC, it's not like a "fog" or a "field" it's an actual alteration to the ambient mana of an area. In the case of hazing the alteration is to the characters own aura which is itself corrupted.

[Machiavelli]

So, the one thing that keeps it somewhat balanced you do not like? Hmmm............ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
Besides, why would you want to walk around in it? Unless you are using an Aspected Mana Static, you are hurting yourself doing it.

It is balanced because you can cast it in an area and you are not influenced by it as long as you don´t step in. My spell works the other way round and therefore looking balanced for me.
I want it, because it would keep hostile spirits (force) meters away from me and my teammates (as long as they stay in the AOE). If it is not permanent but sustained, i can try to get out of there and if an enemy spirit comes in range trying to attack us he should be weakened enough to be killed by mundane methods. I don´t care that it makes me unable to cast magic, as long as it keeps me alive. That BC protects from hostile spells is something we ruled in our group, and it is definitely not the purpose for this spell. It would just be a positive side-effect. Might come in handy the next time a force 6+ spirit, or a lot of them (like the happenings in Hong Kong where we stepped into a roach-spirit-nest), are trying to eat us.

[Draco18s]

Sounds like you need to surge into an Astrally Hazed critter (or one of your teammates does).

That, or carry around an astrally hazed hedgehog (native to the UK).

[Yerameyahu]

It's not clear if the magic in SR4 allows non-permanent BC effects. Astral Hazing is permanent (though it *wears off*), and so is Mana Static. BC is similarly 'permanent'. It seems like altering the local manascape isn't like Matrix jamming.

This isn't to say such a fact isn't *arbitrary*, but all rules of magic are arbitrary; if that's how SR4 works, we have to either change the system, or accept.

Such a spell seems like it could really alter the overall system. If it's instant (non-sustained), then it's magic EMP, with a number of handy uses, including probably being a better dispel than is desirable. If it's sustained (but non-permanent), then it's magic dumb jamming; not as bad as smart jamming (AMS), but still possibly a game-changer. If it moves with you, then you're instantly altering the manascape (Astral Hazing *kinda* does this, but there's a time aspect).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Indeed... It seems like what the Player/Character wants is a Good Counterspelling Skill along with a Nice Spirit Bolt Spell.
That is how I go about it anyways.

[Stalag]

It is balanced because you can cast it in an area and you are not influenced by it as long as you don´t step in. My spell works the other way round and therefore looking balanced for me.

Understandable but that's not how BC count works

I want it, because it would keep hostile spirits (force) meters away from me and my teammates (as long as they stay in the AOE).

BC count doesn't really do that either, that's what Mana Barrier is for. It weakens them while they're in the BC by reducing their force so, sure, a spirit might be reluctant to enter a BC (unless it was of their aspect) but it wouldn't stop them.

If it is not permanent but sustained, i can try to get out of there and if an enemy spirit comes in range trying to attack us he should be weakened enough to be killed by mundane methods.

That would depend on the BC you achieve and if he's still in the BC when you attack him

I don´t care that it makes me unable to cast magic, as long as it keeps me alive.

Mana Barrier will keep you alive and let you keep casting magic. Though technically a BC doesn't prevent you from casting either, it's just negative dice.

That BC protects from hostile spells is something we ruled in our group, and it is definitely not the purpose for this spell.

You're certainly making it sound like that's the purpose.

It would just be a positive side-effect. Might come in handy the next time a force 6+ spirit, or a lot of them (like the happenings in Hong Kong where we stepped into a roach-spirit-nest), are trying to eat us.

It sounds like you're not just trying to twist a game mechanic for an unintended purpose but trying to twist a house rule as well. From a RAW perspective your spell doesn't really have any legs so we can't help your argument. Since this is playing off a house rule it's really all up to your GM.

[Ascalaphus]

What about a Slaughter Spirits spell? It's safe to use while standing in the AoE, and the drain would be manageable... also, no risk of killing innocent children...

[HunterHerne]

What about a Slaughter Spirits spell? It's safe to use while standing in the AoE, and the drain would be manageable... also, no risk of killing innocent children...

Unless they are possessed/inhabited, but that is it's own problem.

On the BC spell, I don't see any problems with it. But, from my perspective it's a bad idea. Unless the mage is a capable hand-to-hand combatant, the BC field doesn't give any obvious advantage agaisnt spirits, unless the spirits are of lower force, since most of them will just hammer from range with Elemental attack and likewise. Against a buff-mage, it ight be better, since it'll remove/reduce most of the buff effects, but that is a generally bad build idea anyway.

Regarding BC in general: BC is supposed to be an accumulation of mana in the area, usually from an abundance of life, but also from other effects (leyline flows and sometimes it just pools for no known reason. Important history can make mana "cling" to an area, as well.)

With all these effects, I think "stable" BC is the rarity, and natural aspects may even shift, with a lot of work. As a general rule of thumb, a BC of 0 is the usual, but sometimes I will have it hange on the players, like when a particularily energetic parade is going through, or in some rural places, the season will affect it (late spring to early fall ~BC1; late fall BC0; winter BC-1;Early spring BC0). But that is how I see the mana flow, and obviously, I'm a minority.

[Ascalaphus]

Such a BC spell would be quite useful. It'd soften up spirits for the Sams in your team, reducing their ItNW to the point where damaging them is no longer in question - as well as reducing spirits' Reaction!

Sure, you go from being an active "do stuff yourself" kind of mage to a countermage, but there's a time and place for that.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What about a Slaughter Spirits spell? It's safe to use while standing in the AoE, and the drain would be manageable... also, no risk of killing innocent children...

Yep....

[Yerameyahu]

It's not really a question of being useful, though.

[Stalag]

Such a BC spell would be quite useful. It'd soften up spirits for the Sams in your team, reducing their ItNW to the point where damaging them is no longer in question - as well as reducing spirits' Reaction!

Sure, you go from being an active "do stuff yourself" kind of mage to a countermage, but there's a time and place for that.

Well, technically, if you get the BC higher than their Force then the spirit is just automatically disrupted. (SM 118). A sustained version is still contrary to how BC is defined however.

[Yerameyahu]

Another issue is that this effectively replicates the Astral Hazing quality (except better), which I'm not sure is possible in terms of 'people understand Astral Hazing'. I don't know if we know how to BC-cloud a metahuman (caster or not). It sounds like it'd be Toxic metamagic at best.

[HunterHerne]

Another issue is that this effectively replicates the Astral Hazing quality (except better), which I'm not sure is possible in terms of 'people understand Astral Hazing'. I don't know if we know how to BC-cloud a metahuman (caster or not). It sounds like it'd be Toxic metamagic at best.

This I'd have to agree with, now that I've seen it. The spell, however, could work as a custom spell developed by a mega (I would think Wuxing, AZT, or maybe Ares (Firewatch Research), that the runners may be hired to steal. IF this is the case, the GM might allow a test to learn the spell before handing it over to the employer, if you are an appropriate tradition.

[Stalag]

This I'd have to agree with, now that I've seen it. The spell, however, could work as a custom spell developed by a mega (I would think Wuxing, AZT, or maybe Ares (Firewatch Research), that the runners may be hired to steal. IF this is the case, the GM might allow a test to learn the spell before handing it over to the employer, if you are an appropriate tradition.

But being a prototype spell something goes wrong and Mac's character now has the astral hazing quality! Enjoy! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Modular Man]

I'm sorry, but I'm not really following here.
Sustained spells with an area effect do not automatically move with the caster. They can be moved, sure, within his line of sight with a complex action. So it's not exactly the same as Astral Hazing.
Or did you want to create a spell that is automatically centered around the caster, even when moving? This generally only applies to detection spells, if I remember correctly, there are no rules for adding this effect to other spells.
I can see no issue to creating this spell rules-wise, to me the rules from "Street Magic" seem to allow to create a sustained version of Mana Static.
From a balance-worried point of view, of course, well... Make sure to ask your GM.

Edit: Well, now I finally got the intention of this spell after re-reading the opening post. My point still stands though... Why not just go with the rules and get an even more versatile spell?

[Mardrax]

Or did you want to create a spell that is automatically centered around the caster, even when moving? This generally only applies to detection spells, if I remember correctly

False.

Detection spells grant the person they're cast on a new sense, with a range of F meters. They're not AoE effects that move along with whomever.

[HunterHerne]

I'm sorry, but I'm not really following here.
Sustained spells with an area effect do not automatically move with the caster. They can be moved, sure, within his line of sight with a complex action. So it's not exactly the same as Astral Hazing.
Or did you want to create a spell that is automatically centered around the caster, even when moving? This generally only applies to detection spells, if I remember correctly, there are no rules for adding this effect to other spells.
I can see no issue to creating this spell rules-wise, to me the rules from "Street Magic" seem to allow to create a sustained version of Mana Static.
From a balance-worried point of view, of course, well... Make sure to ask your GM.

Edit: Well, now I finally got the intention of this spell after re-reading the opening post. My point still stands though... Why not just go with the rules and get an even more versatile spell?

Because using the rules to create a spell that centers on the caster is easier on the drain. It will also create a dibilitating effect on him, which he hopes will be enough to convinve the GM to allow it.

That said, I rather like the idea of Area spells centered on the caster, and in the case of combat spells, ones that hopefully are allowed to act as a burst outside the caster instead of actually starting with him (like a fireball burst). To me, that is a reasonable way to reduce the drain on some of those high drain, elemental spells.