Karma Awards Options

[Paul]

Traditionally I'm a scrooge when it comes to handing out Karma to my players. They've taken down some pretty intense scores over the years and honestly the most I've ever handed out, with one notable exception, is six points of karma. I'm changing this actually. But I was curious as to how much you like to hand out-it doesn't need to be a specific number, but rather a ball park amount. A lot? A little? How do you like to award it? Do you have any special tricks you use?

For instance a poster on this board about 9 years ago taught me a cool trick. Every few sessions I have the players vote for a player. Who ever gets the most votes gets an extra two points of karma, and second place gets 1 point. My players like this, and have tried out a number of different methods when approaching it-dead serious voting, getting together and rigging the votes, rigging the votes so everyone ties, you name it.

So what about at your table?

[Seerow]

Our group tends to get 2-4 karma per session. Used to be 2-4 per run (which could go on for 3-4 sessions... so like 2-4 karma for 2 months of play time). Recently the GM has started allowing us to buy extra karma, up to 50% more than what we got from the last mission, at a rate of 10,000 nuyen per. (So if over the course of the last mission, we had 3 sessions totaling 8 karma, you could buy an extra 4).

[Ascalaphus]

I think it depends a lot on if you use SR4 or SR4A. In SR4A, recommended rewards were increased, but also the cost of increasing Attributes went from 3x new rating to 5x new rating.

[Warlordtheft]

I go for about 10 per ession. Cause I know the players want to see the PC's advance in the game and doing one game month kind precludes small karma awards.

[Ol' Scratch]

For instance a poster on this board about 9 years ago taught me a cool trick. Every few sessions I have the players vote for a player. Who ever gets the most votes gets an extra two points of karma, and second place gets 1 point. My players like this, and have tried out a number of different methods when approaching it-dead serious voting, getting together and rigging the votes, rigging the votes so everyone ties, you name it.

I used to use a system like that a long time ago. It worked really well for us and encouraged everyone to try just a little harder, though the reward usually went to the person who most improved rather than outperformed. Positive reinforcement for the win. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That said, the last time I had a real tabletop group, we experimented with getting rid of Karma altogether. Instead, after each run or story, everyone was allowed to improve one aspect of their character as long as it was used during that story or a part of their downtime thereafter. Improving an attribute, learning or improving a skill, initiating, learning a new spell, tracking down a hard-to-get item or implant (you still had to pay for it, however), and so on and so forth. It actually worked really well and everyone liked it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That does not seem all that equitable. One Player ups his Attrtibute to a 6, and another gets a Single Spell... Really? That actually seems pretty unfair to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Bigity]

Is an ally spirit one aspect? Sign my mages up!

[Ol' Scratch]

That does not seem all that equitable. One Player ups his Attrtibute to a 6, and another gets a Single Spell... Really? That actually seems pretty unfair to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Who are you asking? The player who just got to boost their attribute and any secondary traits that includes, or the mage who just got another spell for his repertoire and added versatility?

It's one of those things that only looks unbalanced because you're used to how it is right now. Doubly so when you assume one player is always going to choose the biggest upgrade while the other is only going to take shitty upgrades. Considering I've actually experimented with it and had nothing but positive responses, I'm pretty sure it works and everyone's happy. Of course, I don't usually play with powergaming munchkin twits, either, so that aspect is a non-issue.

Is an ally spirit one aspect? Sign my mages up!

For each point of Force, sure. Or each additional power. Or each addition spell or skill. etc.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Who are you asking? The player who just got to boost their attribute and any secondary traits that includes, or the mage who just got another spell for his repertoire and added versatility?

It's one of those things that only looks unbalanced because you're used to how it is right now. Doubly so when you assume one player is always going to choose the biggest upgrade while the other is only going to take shitty upgrades. Considering I've actually experimented with it and had nothing but positive responses, I'm pretty sure it works and everyone's happy. Of course, I don't usually play with powergaming munchkin twits, either, so that aspect is a non-issue.

I was not asking, I was stating.

One person gets a 30 Point upgrade, and the other gets a 5 point upgrade. Yeah, way imbalanced in my opinion.

I make no assumptions on what one chooses, but the choice itself will be unbalanced unless they are of equal cost, which is not going to happen very often. I am not saying that it cannot work (it obviously worked for you in a limited fashion. However, I bet that you do not still use that method, though, am I right?), but in the end, it will create an imbalance in the characters, and that is something that you cannot avoid.

I also do not play with a lot of Powergamer Munchkins, but that is not the point. That method WILL create unbalanced characters over time within a group, it cannot be avoided, and if you are saying it can be, you are deluding yourself... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Ol' Scratch]

It's one of those things that only looks unbalanced because you're used to how it is right now.

Why are the costs so extreme when, whether you start with an Attribute of 1 or an Attribute of 5, all you're getting from the upgrade is a +1 bonus to a limited subset of rolls compared to what you were doing ten minutes ago? As opposed to the magician who's gaining a wide array of new possibilities from that single spell, depending on the spell they choose? Say one of the cooler ones like Levitate, Physical Mask, or Trid Phantasm. And what if the attribute being boosted is one of the crappier ones, like Logic, and all because the street samurai with a Logic of 1 doesn't wanna be put out of commission again due to a Decrease Logic spell?

And nevermind the fact that the magician can just as easily boost Magic, Willpower, or their Drain attribute instead, or that the street samurai could learn a new martial art or maneuver the next session.

This post has been edited by Ol' Scratch: Oct 6 2011, 02:54 AM

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's one of those things that only looks unbalanced because you're used to how it is right now.

Again, not only does it LOOK Unbalanced, it IS Unbalanced. You cannot argue that, it is FACT... Eventaully, using your experiment, the characters within the group will be unbalanced against each other, you cannot avoid it. Whether that is in short order, because you have powergameres mixed with non-powergamers, or longer, because you have players who at least try to stay somewhat close to each other in power level, is irrelevant. The fact is that it WILL become unbalanced eventually.

I am happy that it worked for you in your limited experiment. However, it is an inherently unstable advancement scheme, that can and will cause problems over time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Ol' Scratch]

You cannot argue that, it is FACT.

Prove it then.

Everyone gets to improve what they want, emphasizing the things they think are important to their character and which will help them "keep up with the Jones'." It only seems unbalanced because you're convinced that the book is right when it tells you that going from Attribute 5 to Attribute 6 should cost an ungodly amount, even though the benefit you're gaining is no different whatsoever from going from Attribute 1 to Attribute 2 -- an actual fact that is demonstrated just fine during character creation where they are exactly equal.

As an aside, if a player thinks picking up a spell that he really, really wants is worth giving up, say, improving their Drain attribute by +1, who are you to say that's unfair? Furthermore, how is it any different from the player who decides to do nothing but gain new spells with his Karma under the current system while his teammates are doing nothing but boosting their attributes? By your logic, that makes him horribly underpowered and unbalanced, but it's perfectly acceptable under this system. So how, exactly, is that system stopping him from making such a tragic, horrifying mistake?

This post has been edited by Ol' Scratch: Oct 6 2011, 02:43 AM

[CanRay]

Pics or it's not real. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Why are the costs so extreme when, whether you start with an Attribute of 1 or an Attribute of 5, all you're getting from the upgrade is a +1 bonus to a limited subset of rolls compared to what you were doing ten minutes ago? As opposed to the magician who's gaining a wide array of new possibilities from that single spell, depending on the spell they choose? Say one of the cooler ones like Levitate, Physical Mask, or Trid Phantasm. And what if the attribute being boosted is one of the crappier ones, like Logic, and all because the street samurai with a Logic of 1 doesn't wanna be put out of commission again due to a Decrease Logic spell?

And nevermind the fact that the magician can just as easily boost Magic, Willpower, or their Drain attribute instead, or that the street samurai could learn a new martial art or maneuver.

Because raising from 1 to 2 only costs 10 Karma. Raising from 5 to 6 costs 30. There is a reason that the higher stat costs more, but when you value it at the same cost as raising from 1 to 2, then you have discounted the effort required to get there. By the same token, Raising Counter pelling from 5-6 is much more beneficial than a single spell ever will be. Sure, the mage gets more versatility (Maybe) from that spell (Dependant upon which spell is chosen), but the counterspelling is 6 times the cost, and, in the end, it is only costing the same amount of Karma as that spell.

All of your examples have no real meaning, because they will cause an imbalance within the team. For a gain to mean something, it has to have a relevant balance with other choices. I am amazed that you do not see that. If you were to let the one character raise a Stat to 6 (30 Karma) and then let the Mage gain 6 Spells (30 Karma) in the same time frame, then that would be balanced. But to cost them as equal (30 karma vs. 5) is not, nor ever will be, balanced

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Prove it then.

Everyone gets to improve what they want, emphasizing the things they think are important to their character and which will help them "keep up with the Jones'." It only seems unbalanced because you're convinced that the book is right when it tells you that going from Attribute 5 to Attribute 6 should cost an ungodly amount, even though the benefit you're gaining is no different whatsoever from going from Attribute 1 to Attribute 2 -- an actual fact that is demonstrated just fine during character creation where they are exactly equal.

Easy 30 = 30... 30 is NOT equal to 5...
Sure, everyone gets to improve what they want, and with karma, it evens out. I can spend 30 points to get what I want, and you can spend 30 points to get what you want, and as long as the points are equal (in this case 30), then it is balanced. If, however, my cost is 30 and your cost is 5, then it is not balanced. It is basic math. You are wrong.

If you think that the difference between the Weakest Individual (Strength 1) and the Stronger Individual (Strength 5) to advance to the next level takes an equivalent amount of work, well, then you really know nothing about physiology. That is why there are increasing costs to advance to the next increment. It is the Same with Skills. If all it took was equal work, the world would be composed of only Physical and Mental Geniuses (from about the age of 12) with Perfect bodies and Total Knowledge. Or are you really going to argue that your method is how it should really be?

[Ol' Scratch]

Oy.

This post has been edited by Ol' Scratch: Oct 6 2011, 02:55 AM

[CanRay]

Still waiting for pics. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Still waiting for pics. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Pics and Proof... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[CanRay]

Nah, you proved it pretty well, and showed your work. I'm just being a bit annoying as usual. And getting my post count up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Nah, you proved it pretty well, and showed your work. I'm just being a bit annoying as usual. And getting my post count up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Heh... Works for me... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Found any other vice to raise your EVIL yet?

[CanRay]

Nope. Even checked the seven deadly sins and can't even try for them. Yes, even sloth.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Nope. Even checked the seven deadly sins and can't even try for them. Yes, even sloth.

I still say that you should kick Marmots...

[Ol' Scratch]

I'm just going to quote myself again and emphasize a few parts since I've already addressed every single thing you're going on about.

And nevermind the fact that the magician can just as easily boost Magic, Willpower, or their Drain attribute instead, or that the street samurai could learn a new martial art or maneuver the next session.

Everyone gets to improve what they want, emphasizing the things they think are important to their character and which will help them "keep up with the Jones'." It only seems unbalanced because you're convinced that the book is right when it tells you that going from Attribute 5 to Attribute 6 should cost an ungodly amount, even though the benefit you're gaining is no different whatsoever from going from Attribute 1 to Attribute 2 -- an actual fact that is demonstrated just fine during character creation where they are exactly equal.

As an aside, if a player thinks picking up a spell that he really, really wants is worth giving up, say, improving their Drain attribute by +1, who are you to say that's unfair? Furthermore, how is it any different from the player who decides to do nothing but gain new spells with his Karma under the current system while his teammates are doing nothing but boosting their attributes? By your logic, that makes him horribly underpowered and unbalanced, but it's perfectly acceptable under this system. So how, exactly, is that system stopping him from making such a tragic, horrifying mistake?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm just going to quote myself again and emphasize a few parts since I've already addressed every single thing you're going on about.

As an aside, if a player thinks picking up a spell that he really, really wants is worth giving up, say, improving their Drain attribute by +1, who are you to say that's unfair? Furthermore, how is it any different from the player who decides to do nothing but gain new spells with his Karma under the current system while his teammates are doing nothing but boosting their attributes? By your logic, that makes him horribly underpowered and unbalanced, but it's perfectly acceptable under this system. So how, exactly, is that system stopping him from making such a tragic, horrifying mistake?

Wow, this is an easy one... Players can SPEND THEIR KARMA any way they like, because everyone has the same amounts of Karma. So, the one paying 30 points for spells is not being outdone by the one raising an attribute from 5 to 6. THEY BOTH SPENT 30 KARMA. My issue with your proposed solution of not handing out Karma and just allowing someone to advance something, is that it is inherently imbalanced. Now, instead of spending Karma, they get to pick. One Picks the choice to raise a Stat from 5 to 6 (30 Karma Cost) and the other gets..... a spell (5 Karma). So, how exactly is that balanced? Easy, it isn't, it is completely imbalanced. The fact that you cannot see that is actually very funny to me.

As I said above, more than once... If the gains were commensurate with each other (an Attribute raise to 6 for one, and 6 Spells for the other), then it would be quite fair and EQUAL... Not providing equality in the choices leads to an imbalanced game. Now, if the characters spent the same amount of Karma to get to their very different finishing points for their characters, they will be mathematically balanced, and yet their choices will lead to very different characters. The situation you describe above does not lead to imbalance, it leads to differences based upon choice, and those choices were made by spending an equal amount of Karma for both characters. In the first character, he has awesome stats but little versatility, while the other character has the same stats he started with and much more versatility than the first. Those are both valid design choices, as long as they both had the same opportunities (Karma Expenditure) to get there. But, in your systrem, there really is no choice. If you want to stay Equal, you must get the biggest Karma Purchase you can with each purchase, otherwise you fall behind. As I said before, and will continue to say: 30<>5.

Put another way. I can purchase 7 new active skills and a Specialty for the same cost of a Stat Raise from 5 to 6. If you restrict me to a single skill, while the other gets to raise the attribute, then you have created an inherently imbalanced, and unfair, situation.

[Ol' Scratch]

Wow, this is an easy one... Players can SPEND THEIR KARMA any way they like, because everyone has the same amounts of Karma. So, the one paying 30 points for spells is not being outdone by the one raising an attribute from 5 to 6. THEY BOTH SPENT 30 KARMA.

And that's the point you're just not getting. Those values are only those values because they're arbitrarily set that way. Completely and utterly arbitrarily. The actual value of an improvement is dependent upon the player and what they think something is worth to them. Using my previous examples, the player of the mage character believes that gaining his new spell is worth the same to his character as the street samurai's player thinks raising his attribute is to his character. Who are you to tell either of them otherwise, especially if they're both completely familiar with the rules and the consequences and benefits of their choices?

Your problem is that you're utterly convinced that the values in the Karma system are perfect and flawless under any and all circumstance. But they're not. They never have been, they never will be. This is made abundantly clear by the costs of spells versus the benefits of different spells. Levitate and Physical Mask are far more useful spells in most runner situations than Detect Cookies or Cure Disease are. But in the Karma system, they cost exactly the same, ergo, from what you're saying, they must be worth exactly the same at all times. Even though they most certainly aren't. The same holds true for most things in the game. Agility, for instance, is a far better attribute than Logic is for most characters in traditional games. But raising them cost exactly the same, despite the grossly different value of each.