And now the fun begins..., MWAHAHAHAHA!!! *rubs hands in glee* Options

[NumptyScrub]

My apologies in advance, if you are getting fed up with posts regarding our particular gaming group then I completely understand if you want to ignore this topic. I'm hoping we're starting to take steps in the right direction though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So, after reading your advice in the previous 9 threads regarding our mobile trainwreck of a perfectly good sourcebook, we, as a group, have decided to run a few one-offs to familiarise ourselves better with the various rule subsets present in SR4A; get a feel for how stuff works, scope out the power levels and dicepools, and put together house rules for the bits that don't make sense or are blatantly broken (loyalty 6 contacts who have access to THOR springs to mind). If you understand a thing, you can better prepare for a thing. I have volunteered to GM these sessions, as I tend to be more of an unprepared, bodge it together and make it up as I go along sort of GM (e.g. a bad GM). We all know there is going to be a lot of learning done here, so we may as well do it a chunk at a time. The first session (due next Saturday) is going to be all about magic.

The rest of the guys (Hyphz, Gazzor, "Zod's player", and our mustachioed 4th player) are busy making 750 karmagen awakened characters. I have given them free reign of all sourcebooks we can find, as I shall be making use of all the sourcebooks we can find as well. My expectation is for them to minmax the hell out of their chars, and I'll provide a range of NPCs, and we keep (slowly?) escalating the power levels until even Gohan and Goku would run away in fear. We'll also have all the sourcebooks we can scrounge to hand at the session, so we can iron out the RAW, RAI, and OMGWTFLOL as we go along, and hopefully end up with a working understanding of how magic in SR works, and also how we as a group want to use it.

The premise: Super Happy Magical Funtime Hitsquad (name TBC) will be contacted about a run to retrieve a McGuffin or 2 from a heavily, magically defended corp base. I shall be busy over the next couple of days putting stats together for guards, mooks, wagemages, wards, spirits and any other adversaries you fine people may believe would be available in a corp magical research lab. Not just defenders, but test subjects, experiments about to go hideously wrong, the whole nine yards. I like being creative with my speedbumps (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I have specifically used the term "throwaway characters" to describe these new PCs as I am expecting this to end in tears, either for the corp (unlikely) or for the team (much more likely). This is so we can get a feel for the whole magical spectrum in SR, from the subtle to the thaumonuclear. As such, I am hoping they can bring some of the thaumonuclear weaponry to the table themselves, and I am definitely going to try and uphold my end of the arms race for them to bounce off.

Which brings me to the point of making this thread: advice. I am seeking advice, both for my players in the form of build tips for their chars (750 karmagen, all options ticked in Chummer, I am going to be lenient with metatypes and traits as they are unlikely to survive anyway), and myself, in the form of suggestions of opponents and tactics. I'm sure you're all aware by now that we are a fairly action-oriented group so meeting big, scary bad guys they can try to explode in amusing ways (or get exploded by in amusing ways) is going to be expected. The first few they meet are going to be mooks, but it's only going to get worse as they progress deeper into the facility. Initially I'll be focussing my attempts at "balanced" opponents so we can play through the rules thoroughly, but purely as a thought experiment (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) what (barring dragons) would you guys consider almost insurmountable end-boss style challenges to a 750 karma all-mage (or at least all-awakened) group?

Since 3 of us are now members of the board, please feel free to post character suggestions right here in the thread. Regarding opponents for these guys, I suspect that there is enough breadth of options that they couldn't prepare for everything in advance anyway, so posting here should be fine as well. I'm happy to receive PMs if you have any particular favourites that you think deserve a spoiler tag.

I suppose the only other thing I can say at this point is, thanks for reading this giant wall of text, and all advice is gratefully recieved (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Shortstraw]

how about a warform juggernaut possessed by a greatform bloodspirit that is amped up on K-10?

[HunterHerne]

I assume this is Adepts as well as Mages?

Either way, you want escalating wards. A force 1-2 near the gate should give a nice speed bump to get them started. Remember, if they want to get active spells and foci through, it'll alert the mage who set it up. Or if they are dual natured.

Increase the force by one or two points at the actual facility entrance, and again when they reach the Macguffin.

As far as "final encounters" go, the best thing I can suggest is magical traps. Look up Anchoring Metamagic (SM 59). You can have 2 or 3 spell circles that will automatially activate if anyone unauthorized crosses them (I suggest Stunball/Ball Lightning, Physical Barrier, and a Manaball on the astral space, as well as a Ward). If it doesn't outright beat the PCs, it will buy time for security to round up it's power and get in there.

Spirits: It is possible to have True Vessels for a bound spirit, even if the spirit is not a possession spirit. In this case, it'll act as a trap, holding the spirit on the physical plane, with a built in setting to release the spirit, which has been given the order to eliminate anyone they meet upon release. It wouldn't make the mage in question have many friends in the metaplanes, but most hermetics either don't care, or would rather keep their wagemage jobs. It's a nice trick to use in a one shot, and occassionally in a full campaign, but I wouldn't recomend it for characters (PC or NPC) that you want to stay around, because of the Spirit problems it should cause.

[Stalag]

make it up as I go along sort of GM (e.g. a bad GM).

Sarcasm I hope

So all awakened from any source book... so my guess is you'll have a Force 6 spirit, a Nosferatu, a Bandersnatch, and an assault cannon toting pixie

As to an "end boss", you don't need something big and tough - big and tough is just a bunch of numbers. What you need is something (or some things) with an array of abilities and the intelligence to use them in effective ways.

[Loch]

"Boss Fights" in SR rarely go well. Either you stage some huge ambush and everybody dies, or you spend hours of your life creating this one uber-badass prime runner only to have the troll heavy weapons adept ice him inside a single combat turn.

Not that I would know anything about that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Paul]

Don't force. If you try to pace a game like a video game it'll flop, because video games are better at it. Instead plan the details and let them decide what to do and how. React to it just how the world would react to things. Since you seem to be relatively new at this sit down and first write a synopsis. If it's more than paragraph it's too complicated, start over.

"The characters are hired to find and retrieve an item."

Then move on to your orientation stuff: The weather is wet, and rainy. The item is located in a corporate storage locker on XYZ Ave and 123 St NE. The terrain is hilly but has clear fields of fire o 100 meters.

Situation: The item is locked away in a storage locker, that is protected around the clock by a team of hired security professionals. They work 8 hour rotating shifts, and carry stun weapons and wear light armor. They're backed up by drones, and paranormal animals. Describe the physical obstacles they could face. If the staff have habits that can be exploited, detail them so you can answer questions if they're asked. (Yeah Guard B likes to gamble. Guard C is cheating on his wife.) Detail magical and matrix security.

If there's other people working in the area of operations detail them.

Once you have that sit down and do an NPC sheet. Basic stuff you know you'll need: IP's, Skill ratings, etc...

It takes a little time but it's worth it.

[Neraph]

It should be a 'run against a magical location that is Geomanced at R4 Aspected Backround Count to a specific Tradition that your group will probably not have. Make it an uphill battle.

[Ryu]

As the goal for the next session is learning to understand magic, escalating stuff is a good idea not only for wards.

1) Get something out of the house of a mages apprentice, say a key for step 2.

2) Get something out of the house of a full mage.

3) Now we are talking the HQ of a magical group.

4) And last a corp facility.

I would personally not make these training sessions a powergaming lecture. It seems more valuable to take a normal build for a testdrive and see where minmaxing has a payoff. The key lecture is (again, IMO) that spellcasting magic 4 is enough against mundane opponents.


Stuff to do since it is a PG lecture:
- wards and how they can be defeated
- Background Count and how common BC 1 is, Filtering, Aspected BC
- Possession by something with Magical Guard
- Shielding, Absorption, Centering
-- and their relationship to Fireball
-- different elemental effects and how being hit by those sucks
- illusion magic and ambushes
- Masking, (Advanced)
- spirits (avoid making your testgame into a proxy war of high-force spirits)
- reach out and touch someone, the ritual spellcasting way

[Traul]

Do you want them to learn to magical security, to use magic themselves, or do you want to learn how to counter your players' magic? The three are vastly different. Some examples:

-Spirits are supposed to be badass, but against an all magic group they lose the use of their Immunity to Normal Weapons.
-As Neraph said, a magical stronghold should have an aspected background count. An all-magic group is the worst possible answer to that.
-Combat spells have a much harder time damaging drones, and mana spells cannot do it at all.

Shadowrun is all about picking the right tools for the right job, and pitting magic against magic is not always the right thing to do. If you try to restrict both the tools and the job, it will be likely be unbalanced one way or the other and it will not teach any of you much about real run situations.

[NumptyScrub]

I assume this is Adepts as well as Mages?

Spirits: It is possible to have True Vessels for a bound spirit, even if the spirit is not a possession spirit. In this case, it'll act as a trap, holding the spirit on the physical plane, with a built in setting to release the spirit, which has been given the order to eliminate anyone they meet upon release. It wouldn't make the mage in question have many friends in the metaplanes, but most hermetics either don't care, or would rather keep their wagemage jobs. It's a nice trick to use in a one shot, and occassionally in a full campaign, but I wouldn't recomend it for characters (PC or NPC) that you want to stay around, because of the Spirit problems it should cause.

Indeed, all I gave them was "awakened characters" for the build notes. One of them might take an adept with a b&e skillset, however I think it much more likely they'll all go for casters / summoners. I'll look up True Vessel and see if it's worth threading in somewhere as a trap (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sarcasm I hope

As do I. In a system I'm familiar with (e.g. DnD) I've run sessions at 30 minutes notice, bodging something together while the players are creating their chars, and they've always seemed to go ok. Maybe the guys I normally play with are just easy to please (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

This system I am not so familiar with, which is why I am asking for advice. From the look of it so far there is a lot of good advice already (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As the goal for the next session is learning to understand magic, escalating stuff is a good idea not only for wards.

1) Get something out of the house of a mages apprentice, say a key for step 2.

2) Get something out of the house of a full mage.

3) Now we are talking the HQ of a magical group.

4) And last a corp facility.

I would personally not make these training sessions a powergaming lecture. It seems more valuable to take a normal build for a testdrive and see where minmaxing has a payoff. The key lecture is (again, IMO) that spellcasting magic 4 is enough against mundane opponents.


Stuff to do since it is a PG lecture:
- wards and how they can be defeated
- Background Count and how common BC 1 is, Filtering, Aspected BC
- Possession by something with Magical Guard
- Shielding, Absorption, Centering
-- and their relationship to Fireball
-- different elemental effects and how being hit by those sucks
- illusion magic and ambushes
- Masking, (Advanced)
- spirits (avoid making your testgame into a proxy war of high-force spirits)
- reach out and touch someone, the ritual spellcasting way

I was initially thinking a large base with a concentric ring DnD style defense; CR1 at the gate, CR3 inside the first ward etc. I am blatantly going to use your suggestion of having several locations that ramp up in security instead now, it makes more sense in the setting, and it'll feel more like a set of incresing challenges. Also I am going to work my way through that list and take a good look at the rules, so when I throw them at the players we should be able to get our heads round it. We've already brushed on illusion, spirits and basic combat spells, but have not really done anything with background count or posession yet.

[AppliedCheese]

Don't forget to:

a) Hack their links

and

b) massacre the casters with gunfire

It'll help reinforce the "you can't do it all with magic" mindset.

[Mayhem_2006]

Don't forget to:

a) Hack their links

and

b) massacre the casters with gunfire

It'll help reinforce the "you can't do it all with magic" mindset.

Also, some remote controlled drones or even simple remote turrets so that the controller isn't in LOS will also be handy, unless the casters specifically have direct damage spells.

****

Make sure, btw, that you scrutinise the character sheets before play to make sure nobody has accidentally made a mistake or bought equipment with too high an availability. Those seemed to be some of the original problems that your group had. You should have copies - at least summarised copies - in front of you during the game.

[Tiralee]

Background counts - always killer.

And multiple-layers of defense, not all-magic, but combos. Mages still need LOS, drones with ultrasound & concussion grenades don't. Para-animals can be bloody evil as well. Gas Grenades (Hyper still around?) mixed in with normal smoke - don't suppose your fellows go on runs in a sealed enviro suit, do they?

But if you're wanting a boss-fight, just look at what people have put up as "min-max" build and add on a few more points of armour/magic. Voila! Instant Devilman.(Stunball/Nova/Lightning ball are always evil.)

-Tir

[Kirk]

Because it's multiple locations, may I suggest a few bumps in the road?

When they leave appropriate residue (probably at the first location, maybe the second), use a ritual spell against them. Mind probe is good for this, for the same reason they'd use it. There are alternative spells for this. Oh, don't forget that once they're identified, the same residue can be used to ritual a nasty little combat spell. (Note that they might feel the spell building in both cases, and given what they are should have some idea what's going on -- meaning you the GM act as their encyclopedia.)

A usefully frustrating defense is a mage supporting from a remote room. That is done by stringing fiber optic (visual, not for signal) to most if not all rooms and halls that all ends in a well-protected room deep in the facility. It's not much use for keeping watch as the mage can't use electronics to help and so must move from lens to lens. But once the security forces call contact, they get mage support -- and geeking the mage isn't an option.

A mage with mana static can simultaneously introduce them to background count the hard way AND remind them why magic is not always the answer. This could be the mage in the panic room, preceding.

[hyphz]

On this topic, can I ask a question about illusion? I've been wondering about how a "tricksy" mage would go, but almost all the illusion spells in SM seem to just be Confusion by another name (ie, -hits to all actions). Is there any real difference? And more importantly, do they stack, so you can stack up a ridiculous negative modifier against someone by stacking Confusion/Bugs/HotPotato/etc spells?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

On this topic, can I ask a question about illusion? I've been wondering about how a "tricksy" mage would go, but almost all the illusion spells in SM seem to just be Confusion by another name (ie, -hits to all actions). Is there any real difference? And more importantly, do they stack, so you can stack up a ridiculous negative modifier against someone by stacking Confusion/Bugs/HotPotato/etc spells?

For your basic Illusions, you want Phantasm and Trid Phantasm... They are your go to spells for Illusions that actually fool the senses (As well as your standby spells of Invisibility, Improved Invisibility and the Stealth and Silence Spells. Your "Distration" Illsuions (Bugs, Confusion, Hot Potato, etc.) are situational, and are good for specific things (even though many of them have the same mechanic). There is no reason that they would not stack effects, other than the nuissance factgor of having to maintain multiple spells. However, they are generally better for the circumstance for which they are meant to function for (Why would you ever Bugs, Hot Potato, and Confuse someone, all at the same time?). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Neraph]

On this topic, can I ask a question about illusion? I've been wondering about how a "tricksy" mage would go, but almost all the illusion spells in SM seem to just be Confusion by another name (ie, -hits to all actions). Is there any real difference? And more importantly, do they stack, so you can stack up a ridiculous negative modifier against someone by stacking Confusion/Bugs/HotPotato/etc spells?

You can stack Confusion/Confusion/Confusion. This is not D&D where nearly everything has a type and same types don't stack. The game will tell you when they don't stack.

[Ryu]

I was initially thinking a large base with a concentric ring DnD style defense; CR1 at the gate, CR3 inside the first ward etc. I am blatantly going to use your suggestion of having several locations that ramp up in security instead now, it makes more sense in the setting, and it'll feel more like a set of incresing challenges. Also I am going to work my way through that list and take a good look at the rules, so when I throw them at the players we should be able to get our heads round it. We've already brushed on illusion, spirits and basic combat spells, but have not really done anything with background count or posession yet.

From a narrative standpoint you would have gotten increasing tension, too. The idea of having a sequence of mini-runs provides your players with the chance of preparing (and therefore testing) different strategies, and removes your need to explain why the heavy-hitting opponents ignore the first steps of attack.

[Stalag]

Your "Distration" Illsuions (Bugs, Confusion, Hot Potato, etc.) are situational, and are good for specific things (even though many of them have the same mechanic).

Yep... also remember, not everything is oriented toward combat. Think about people's natural reactions

Group about to ambush some guards? Right before they do, throw down Hot-Potato and the illusion of their guns suddenly becoming red hot will cause them to drop them. The penalty is for a character who would try to use the weapon anyway (which realistically would be only in the most dire circumstances)

Need to get some guards to leave an area? Hit them with Bugs or Swarm or Stink or Stench - in most cases that should send them running away from the area (probably through the door)... which you choose would depend on the situation and how subtle you want to be. If they're in a building, even if they fail to resist the spell, a swarm of insects randomly showing up would stand out as something not natural.

Guards hunting for you? Hit them with confusion and watch them wander off the wrong way

Need to blind a camera? Chaos is the tool for that (Or Chaff if you want to save yourself a point of drain and don't mind limiting yourself to electronics)

Agony and Orgasm? I'll let you use your imagination there (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Traul]

Agony and Orgasm? I'll let you use your imagination there (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

Orgasm has a huge advantage over other spells. Things like Stink or Bugs are obvious. They might get the guards out of the way, but you can be sure they will sound an alarm. On the other hand, there is a good chance that they will not dare to call after experiencing an orgasm spell...

[CanRay]

Agony and Orgasm? I'll let you use your imagination there (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

S&M Club on novacoke?

[Stalag]

Orgasm has a huge advantage over other spells. Things like Stink or Bugs are obvious. They might get the guards out of the way, but you can be sure they will sound an alarm. On the other hand, there is a good chance that they will not dare to call after experiencing an orgasm spell...

Though they will probably head off to the restroom

[HunterHerne]

Orgasm has a huge advantage over other spells. Things like Stink or Bugs are obvious. They might get the guards out of the way, but you can be sure they will sound an alarm. On the other hand, there is a good chance that they will not dare to call after experiencing an orgasm spell...

Maybe. If they have reason to suspect magic is involved, they might. I might make a intuiton+logic test for the NPC, subject to the same penalties, obviously.

[Falanin]

One of my favorite elements to add to Shadowruns is the pressure of time. Can you take out all generic guards in your path to the mcguffin? Can you take out ALL of them without alerting the HTR team they keep on standby downstairs? Since you tripped an alarm, can you get to the mcguffin, get through the physical defenses and get out before the HTR team murders you for killing their rent-a-mook buddies?

Most importantly, can you get paid before the opposition whacks your Johnson?

[hyphz]

Yep... also remember, not everything is oriented toward combat. Think about people's natural reactions

Group about to ambush some guards? Right before they do, throw down Hot-Potato and the illusion of their guns suddenly becoming red hot will cause them to drop them. The penalty is for a character who would try to use the weapon anyway (which realistically would be only in the most dire circumstances)

Need to get some guards to leave an area? Hit them with Bugs or Swarm or Stink or Stench - in most cases that should send them running away from the area (probably through the door)... which you choose would depend on the situation and how subtle you want to be. If they're in a building, even if they fail to resist the spell, a swarm of insects randomly showing up would stand out as something not natural.

Well, those are fair enough, but coming from the thread where people were telling me how to GM it's too easy to see these things as being "I win" buttons unless they are nerfed fairly quickly. So I'm guessing the -hits penalty is the only property I can depend on.

Did have a laugh thinking about combining Confusion and Orgasm though. "I have no idea what's going on, but I'm REALLY enjoying it.."