[X] My Assistant

[phlapjack77]

And once again, drugs do not solve the IP issues, they have horrible side effects and will eventually kill your essence anyways,

Horrible side effects? No. You say horrible side effects, but then almost immediately say the side effects aren't that bad. Like so:

Jet is 75, lasts much less time(but long enough for a combat), and the drop isn't as nasty, and since it was designed as a combat drug for cops it won't need addition tests as often...but there is still the problem that it needs to be taken before combat to be effective.

So "Jet"(Jazz) is a very viable option with no real side effects, no addiction tests, and immediately administerably using an auto-injector with a biomonitor or pre-programmed trigger on your commlink. WR still have to be turned on before combat too, unless you walk around with WR on 24/7, which is just silly.

...who in their right mind things injesting mind altering chemicals that screw with your body chemistry is better than an extra organ that increases your response time?

Mind-altering chemicals? Vs. the invasiveness that is WR / MBW? This is SR, dystopic future-punk, remember? People do all kinds of crazy things to their bodies, ingesting mind-altering chemicals seems pretty low on the list of abuses available.

And once again, noone is saying it is a better option, only that it's a viable one, that can make for an interesting(read: fun) character.

[Yerameyahu]

AFAIK, WR isn't 'turned on and off' in SR4 (i.e. 'anymore'), but you probably could if you wanted to.

Just because Jazz is less rough than Cram doesn't mean it's not rough. It *does* cause Disorientation (no fun), but the fluff used to say long-term use wrecked your mind. *shrug* It only gives you a small boost (same as Cram), unless you're allowing drug stacking rules. If so, they definitely ramp up the drawbacks (assuming the GM isn't crap).

It is an option, sure. A weaker, rougher option, just like being mundane/no-aug in combat is weaker, rougher. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

As I said. It's possible to play a non-augment character. And play it well.

But you really have be up on your rules-fu to do so. It's not something I'd recommend to a Shadowrun novice.

I for one sometimes purposely play significantly sub-optimal characters for the challenge. Or purposely gimp my character's abilities. That in itself can be fun.

"20 opponents, huh? Is that all? I extend my arm out very deliberately so they can see what I'm doing, and swing it behind me so my fist is in the small of my back. I don't have a rope to tie it back there, sorry." - actual in-game combat from an old campaign. My character won, too.



-k

[Yerameyahu]

Ha! Still, it's a *lot* easier to count coup if you're starting with 30 dice, and people are (perhaps unfairly) much more impressed by *that* than by the 'naturally' weak character's modest successes.

[KarmaInferno]

Actually, remembering a bit better now, the character saw the fresh set of opponents appear right after a fight, dropped his sword*, put his arm behind his back, raised his other hand to motion the opponents to approach, and said, "Come and have a go, if you think you're hard enough."

Yes, I did the accent.

It definitely helps to know the rules well if you're trying to be a badass using less resources.





-k

* - He didn't actually have sword proficiency, being a hand-to-hand fighter, but used one anyway in the first couple of rounds of many fights. The character was arrogant and completely full of himself. Much like me, I suppose. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Glyph]

From the description of Jazz:

When jazz wears off, the user crashes and is flooded with despondent and miserable emotions, suffering the effects of Disorientation (see p. 245).
If cram is bad for hyperactivity and feelings of paranoia, jazz is worse. Roleplaying a jazz user means turning it up a notch, and portraying someone with too much energy to burn.

It is poor roleplaying if you simply use jazz for a cheap initiative boost and give it little other thought. This is a substance that affects the mind as well as the body.

[Ol' Scratch]

It's basically just manic depressiveness in a popper.

[Yerameyahu]

And it was worse in SR3, specifically for long-term users; though I'm not saying you should have to use old fluff. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Ascalaphus]

I find it odd that people take pride in "not sullying their bodies with implants" and then turn around to take combat drugs that are obviously unhealthy. Or if they try to argue that nanites aren't implants.

Either you take the hippie high-road and don't put tech in your body, or you do it right and get the good stuff. This halfway drugs-but-not-tech thing is hypocrisy.

[Ol' Scratch]

I find it odd that people take pride in "not sullying their bodies with implants" and then turn around to take combat drugs that are obviously unhealthy. Or if they try to argue that nanites aren't implants.

Who said that's the reason? It's a reason, and so what if they're hypocrites?

Either you take the hippie high-road and don't put tech in your body, or you do it right and get the good stuff. This halfway drugs-but-not-tech thing is hypocrisy.

Or you do what you want to do, elitist asshats be damned.

[Yerameyahu]

Hypocrisy is also extremely common. (Meta)humans are not rational, consistent, etc. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[last_of_the_grea...]

Question: does the spirit pact quality count as a magic character? 'Cause if your mundane guy has a spirit pal that is willing to lend him it's powers or heal two boxes of damage instantly in exchange for 1 karma that could be a cool edge to have that might make him more combat viable.

[Ascalaphus]

I was mentioning it because a lot of the time in this thread, the reply to "why won't you use augmentations" is some kind of purity schtick (there's no Sensitive System for bioware, after all). And then drugs are shown as a substitute.

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, but any kind of purity is equally 'likely'. That's why you've got vegetarians-who-eat-X, Y, and/or Z. (Mmm, sweet sweet Z.)

[Ascalaphus]

Soylent Z is made of people. But not all vegetarians would object.

[Psikerlord]

Just on drugs - what happens if a char takes Jazz/jet and Cram at the same time? Does she get two IPs? ... with double the side effects?

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, more or less. There are (vague) rules in Arsenal. Some believe you can do the same with multiple doses of the same drug. As long as the GM penalizes appropriately, anything is probably fine.

[Psikerlord]

hmmm okay well I guess an unaugmented dude could use a combo jazz/cram if things really hit the fan in a fight.

On a side note - do drugs stack with cyber? I guess they do?

[Yerameyahu]

Some people think so. Generally, things do stack, but I (for example) have trouble with a mere drug improving upon crazy superconducting nerves. And game balance. It kind of depends on your table.

[Glyph]

I would probably impose severe penalties for trying to highball two combat drugs. People die from things like mixing alcohol with drugs, or combining two prescription medicines because doctor A didn't know they also had a prescription from doctor B. Mixing jazz and cram would be likelier to send someone into a coma than to give them extra IP.

[3278]

One of the most interesting, capable, longest-surviving characters I've ever played was the Street Kid contact. He never had any magic or augmentations. I'm not sure he ever successfully fired a gun. It was sweet.

[Ascalaphus]

I think combining drugs, or multiple doses, is quite cheesy.

I'm more positive about combining drugs and implants, but that's for a different reason: as a GM I want drugs to be tempting even for players who've already bought IP boosting 'ware. Because in dystopia, doing the "dirty" thing should be worth considering.

[phlapjack77]

AFAIK, WR isn't 'turned on and off' in SR4 (i.e. 'anymore'), but you probably could if you wanted to.

Well, there's this from SR4A:
"The system includes a trigger to turn the wired reflexes on and off (taking a Free Action)."

Or do you mean there's nothing saying you can't keep it on 24/7?

[Yerameyahu]

Nah, you're right. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) They used to have an actual trigger add-on in SR3, right? So I mis-remembered the change. Though it's true there are no penalties or anything, bleh.

I totally agree: the speedballing rules are far less dire than they should be, and mixing things is totally cheesy (given the lack of direness). I'd want using drugs atop your wires to cause bad things to happen, but be theoretically possible.

[Psikerlord]

Some people think so. Generally, things do stack, but I (for example) have trouble with a mere drug improving upon crazy superconducting nerves. And game balance. It kind of depends on your table.

Yeah I'd have a balance problem with drugs and too much cyber/magic (not exceeding 4 IPs total inc drugs). Double drug thing for an no aug/no magic seems ok to me however (with double penalty, just kinda makes them more competitive with the sammies etc). I guess like many other things in SR4A, comes back to table balance.