No augmentation, no magic - a realistic char? Options

[Yerameyahu]

It's actually a 'synergistic' penalty for speedballing, at least in theory. Say, 4x the penalty. Something like that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's actually a 'synergistic' penalty for speedballing, at least in theory. Say, 4x the penalty. Something like that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But then no one would abuse drugs like that, and you lose some of the Dystopia... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

It depends on what '4x' means. IPs are a big deal. Still, I hardly think the right way to keep dystopia is to make it *nicer*. It's like preventing speeding by raising the speed limit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today. I want vasopressin, washed caffeine, jumpstart, gingko biloba, guarana, and any intelligence enhancer introduced in the last five years.




-k

[vladski]

Question: does the spirit pact quality count as a magic character? 'Cause if your mundane guy has a spirit pal that is willing to lend him it's powers or heal two boxes of damage instantly in exchange for 1 karma that could be a cool edge to have that might make him more combat viable.

You can't be mundane and take that Quality. As below (emphasis mine):

"The Awakened character has entered into a pact with a free spirit, which uses part of its spiritual essence to augment..." - Street Magic, Pg. 26

Vlad

[TheOOB]

=If in every classier restaurant are several layers of cyberware scanners, cameras, etc. than yes the unaugmented (or lightly augmented) char might even get along better than the 0.001 essence guy.
It is like driving around in a tank. You do not need to fear to be robbed or a car accident. Your main problem is, you are driving around in a tank.

But we're not comparing unaugmented to near cyborgs, we're comparing unaugmented people to augmented people. Many useful augmentations, especially bio, either are difficult to detect, or not illegal. Also even illegal onces can be explained. You can explain that Move-By-Wire system as controlling your seizures.

[Irion]

@TheOOB

You can explain that Move-By-Wire system as controlling your seizures.

And than you need the (electronic) papers to prove it.

And if we are comparing only lightly augmented people, those persons won't have 3 or 4 IPs right out of chargen.
Those person will most likely not have muscle toner 4.
A move-by-Wire 2 is allready 3 Essence. Add a bit other stuff and this is far from "lightly" augmented.

Many useful augmentations, especially bio, either are difficult to detect, or not illegal.

Bioware is quite not to detect, thats true. Cyberware becomes difficult if beta or higher.
(But the rules for scanners are not that great, I know.)
Alpha and standart is quite easy, becaue of the 6 to 7 dices for 1-2 hits...
But thats a major problem with shadowrun in general: There are some pools, which can't get higher and there are other which skyrocket. Thats quite a bad thing.
Having one net hit with a pool of max 9 dice is a completly different thing than having 1 net hit with a pool of max 50 dice..

[Ascalaphus]

Yeah I'd have a balance problem with drugs and too much cyber/magic (not exceeding 4 IPs total inc drugs). Double drug thing for an no aug/no magic seems ok to me however (with double penalty, just kinda makes them more competitive with the sammies etc). I guess like many other things in SR4A, comes back to table balance.

I never wanted drugs to be competitve with implants. Implants are expensive, you give up something to take them.

The reason I want drugs stackable with implants, is that even if a player takes the implants, he'd still know that if he took drugs, he'd get a bonus: there'd always be the siren song of crunchy power. It's all very easy to "say no to drugs" if they're not giving you any boni, but it becomes more of a choice what they do.

I'm fine with drugs+implants being nasty addictive or hangover-y, though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It depends on what '4x' means. IPs are a big deal. Still, I hardly think the right way to keep dystopia is to make it *nicer*. It's like preventing speeding by raising the speed limit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Heh, perhaps. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Snow_Fox]

Until 3rd ed came out I would say 'yes', now I'm not so sure. We used the priority system to create characters rather than purchase system, With that someone who make skills a priority had a powerful advantage in lots of skills-this was before the concept of a 'face' character had come through, ducking back in combat the proto-face character was good for social interation and b&E work.

[TheOOB]

I never wanted drugs to be competitve with implants. Implants are expensive, you give up something to take them.

The reason I want drugs stackable with implants, is that even if a player takes the implants, he'd still know that if he took drugs, he'd get a bonus: there'd always be the siren song of crunchy power. It's all very easy to "say no to drugs" if they're not giving you any boni, but it becomes more of a choice what they do.

I'm fine with drugs+implants being nasty addictive or hangover-y, though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

I like drugs to stack with implants too, as long as you don't go over 4IP. I can be real harsh with the addition mechanics though.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

I can be real harsh with the addition mechanics though.

Umm... not to be overly destructive again, but... what mechanics? It's a roll, and there are no rules for when you should have to roll. Mechanics are stuff that work, well, mechanically, as in, something triggers them, they do stuff, stuff happens. As it is, there is no defined trigger. That's like having the doomsday machine but no on/off switch. The only drug that actually has a mechanic is Betel.

It's the same with most of the drugs' secondary effects - what do they mean?

[Yerameyahu]

Can you be more specific about "most of the drugs' secondary effects"?

[Ascalaphus]

I thought pretty much all of those secondary effects had rule definitions?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I thought pretty much all of those secondary effects had rule definitions?

Me too... *shrug*

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Can you be more specific about "most of the drugs' secondary effects"?

Ok, what I'm talking about, and I'll give examples for both:

Good drug:

Duration: (6 – Body) hours, minimum 1 hour
Effect: –1 Reaction, +1 to all thresholds, Pain Resistance 3
Description: A tranquilizing narcotic, bliss is an opiate synthesized
from poppy plants. In addition to other effects, bliss
provides pain resistance equal to three levels of the High Pain
Tolerance quality (p. 78).
Bliss was given its name due to the sensation its users feel.
Some may describe it as floating on clouds, dulling the senses
to everything but feelings of pleasure and happiness. Players
attempting to roleplay a bliss user may want to focus on the
escapist angle, using the drug to block out the rest of a chaotic
or unsatisfying world.

This provides clear mechanics and a description of the effects, that is, there is a unison of fluff and mechanics - both for up- and for downsides. Every time I roll a test while under the effect the game forces me to consider the effects of the drug. "Oh, becasue I'm so blissed up I unfortunately fail this delicate mechanical test...". "I'm in such a haze, I probably won't bother to dodge *roll supports claim* - BUT, on the bright side, that punch doesn't even fase me. I just laugh and give him a taste of his medicine."


Bad drug:

Cram
Duration: (12 – Body) hours, minimum 1 hour
Effect: +1 Reaction, +1 Initiative Pass
Description: The most recent amphetamine to make the
rounds, cram is an energizer drug designed to give the user an
energy boost. When this effect wears off, users crash and suffer
6 Stun damage (unresisted) for an equivalent duration.
Cram users, while on the drug, may appear hyper-alert,
possibly to the point of paranoia. They are quick to react, often
doing so without thinking first. Jitteriness, fidgeting, or
emotional or irrational outbursts may be common. Characters
may decide to use cram if they cannot afford cyberware or
bioware, or if they are looking for a little edge against potential
opponents.

Here, there is no unison: Energy boost? Some energy boost. Thent here is the secondary effect: react without thinking. Irrational. What does that mean? How do I play this? Is it enough to say "Oh, I'm all fidgety... I ask the old lady all hyperactive-like: Do you know the way to the next mono-rail station?". That's.... probably as stupid as it sounds, but it's really enough to fulfill all the fluff requirements of the drug, because you can't punish a player for not roleplaying properly. In fact, he might never mention his condition at all, and put any lack of visible effect down to poor acting skills, and he would be completely right in doing so.
A "good" mechanic, and i mean only in the sense that it even IS a mechanic, might say: Whenever the character needs to make a tactical decision, have him roll a composure test. If he fails, count down from 10 to 0, and if the player doesn't proclaim an action in that time his action is forfeit.
A different good mechanic might be a penalty to Log, or +1 Threshold to composure tests, or whatever.

Now we can all agree as long as we like that it would be desirable that the player give this some thought and play accordingly, but any kind of GM-imposed penalties on a perceived improperness of his roleplaying or actions are a pure dick-move, because however you see it, you can't expect a common roleplayer to be a method actor. I certainly don't have a library of techniques to pull out of my hat to suddenly perfectly portrait a guy under such an effect.

So what I'm seeing is: I get a boost to reaction and an IP. I become faster. I do more stuff in less time. Great. Now since I'm doing that, I obviously look like I'm moving faster, which is completely enough to make any guy think I'm agitated or on edge. After it wears off, I get a bad headache. Ok, BAD headache. But that's it, there is nothing else substantial there.

However, you keep reading about people on the boards saying "Oh, my character wouldn't take that, he wants to have his senses together when he's on a run." YES, that's a good fluff reason, but it's not represented in the mechanics at all.

Likewise, for instance:

Nitro users feel infused with energy, suffer a diminished
attention span, and talk incessantly (even to themselves).

Now... a good mechanical effect would be: -1 to Cha, or -2 to Cha based skill tests, because obviously talking to oneself looks stupid. But... there is nothing. So that secondary effect is basically non-existant, mechanics-wise. And some people can't actually act that way on their own, so they would have to just say what's happening, which is pretty pointless.

And really, it doesn't have to be numbers. Simple conditionals work, too: Whenever this happens, then the user must... etc. Shadowrun even contains all the base mechanics for these situations: Composure, recollection tests, whatever. It's just really sloppy to not use them.

So to sum this up:
Drugs should have downsides - even above the crash that comes at the end.
These downsides should have in-game effects that don't depend on acting skill, because that varies wildly.
And drugs should have a defined mechanic for when addiction tests are necessary.

[Yerameyahu]

I see, you're talking about the *fluff* not matching the crunch. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I thought you meant the crunch was unclear. (So did TJ and Ascalaphus, heh.)

So, yes. Agreed. Crunch should match the fluff, or they shouldn't say it.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

I see, you're talking about the *fluff* not matching the crunch. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I thought you meant the crunch was unclear. (So did TJ and Ascalaphus, heh.)

So, yes. Agreed. Crunch should match the fluff, or they shouldn't say it.

Teh crunch is clear, there is just not enough of it. That's what I was saying.

[Yerameyahu]

Totally. Some drugs have no drawbacks at all, basically.

[TheOOB]

The actually mechanics for addiction rolls are in the game, but not how often the roll should be called for(there are suggestions, but no real crunch on the subject). For some drugs(especially street drugs like Cram), I call for addition tests fairly often.

[KarmaInferno]

Teh crunch is clear, there is just not enough of it. That's what I was saying.

There's an old game design maxim: Balance crunch with crunch, fluff with fluff.

It's not ALWAYS applicable, but it often is.

If you give a mechanical benefit, make the cost mechanical. If you give a roleplay benefit, make the cost roleplay.

Mixing the two tends to result in a rules lawyer's wet dream.




-k

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

There's an old game design maxim: Balance crunch with crunch, fluff with fluff.

It's not ALWAYS applicable, but it often is.

If you give a mechanical benefit, make the cost mechanical. If you give a roleplay benefit, make the cost roleplay.

Mixing the two tends to result in a rules lawyer's wet dream.

-k

While I believe you are right... it's not even just balance. Combat drugs that don't have side-effects are like... I don't know, throw-away augmentation for cheap. Technically they are balanced by the crash the user suffers at the end, and that alone is a significant risk. However... personally, I would give them more downsides - give real Log and Cha penalties and the like to combat drugs that make you more feral such as Nitro or Kamikaze, but reduce the crashing a bit, or even more than a bit. As is, there are categories of drugs:

Jizz and consorts that have no real drawbacks
And "NPC-drugs" ™. Those are what NPCs take to suddenly turn a stupid ganger into a powerhouse just long enough until he's invariably killed.

That makes no sense. While it may be flavourful for a while to have scores of gangers come at you Reaver-style, it's clearly not a fun thing on the long run. So it would be better if Combat drugs made people better at combat - while seriously hampering other things. In that respect, a long duration is even perfectly fine. "So, Mr. Combat-speedball, now combat is over, we'll just go and meet the J... hey, it's a corpse, not a toy...don't eat that". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lick.gif)

[Psikerlord]

I think the fluff is a handy justification for the GM if a player who getting unbalanced power wise by using too much drugs ... might make the player make composure checks or something or take the kind of detrimental action specified (eg: the one where you act irrationally, or suddenly shoot your friend by accident because you're so jumpy, and so on). Of course the rules also say the GM can CHOOSE when a PC becomes addicted. So that's a good balancing tool too, if required.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

I think the fluff is a handy justification for the GM if a player who getting unbalanced power wise by using too much drugs ... might make the player make composure checks or something or take the kind of detrimental action specified (eg: the one where you act irrationally, or suddenly shoot your friend by accident because you're so jumpy, and so on). Of course the rules also say the GM can CHOOSE when a PC becomes addicted. So that's a good balancing tool too, if required.

I'm not going to start arguing about this, I'll just post a link explaining an opinion I pretty much share.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/in...hp?topic=3752.0

[Ascalaphus]

I'm not going to start arguing about this, I'll just post a link explaining an opinion I pretty much share.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/in...hp?topic=3752.0

Not to go too much off topic, but did you notice that it took nearly four pages into that topic until the OP managed to explain to the other posters what he meant, instead of what he seemed to say in his opening post?

Anyway, with drugs the major issue is the vagueness of the addiction rules. I do think it should be somewhat random; taking drugs and hoping not to get addicted should always be a gamble. But currently it's just too vague; unless the GM tells the players how often to expect addiction checks, they have no way to know if drugs are a risk they can afford. In this way the mechanics aren't "consumer friendly", telling the potential "customer" what to expect.