[X] My Assistant

[TheOOB]

Why shouldn't that include those who, for whatever personal reason, despise the idea of sullying their bodies with metal or mutated organs?

It does, those runners are dead, playing a living character is far more interesting than playing a dead one.

Honestly, either "sully" your body with augmented flesh and chrome now, or with lead later, your choice.

I'm also going to say something right now, playing a crappy or "sub-par" character does not make you're character more interesting, in fact it usually makes your character more annoying that anything else. Thats not to say characters shouldn't have weaknesses, but a character should be good at what they do otherwise they don't make any sense. A shadowrunner isn't just a random joe who decided to start going illegal things for money, those people are gangbangers and syndicate goons(or dead). A Shadowrunner is someone with exceptional ability who, for some reason, is unable, or unwilling to use said ability for legitimate pursuits.

Shadowrunners do the most dangerous job in the sixth world, and combat and bloodshed is part of it. If you're unaugmented and unawakened, unless you have some kind of special unique skill my team needs for this specific run, you are not coming with me in any dangerous part of the run. You can be the best face or hacker around, but if you can't hold you're own in combat, you don't belong on my running team in a dangerous situation, and taking drugs and relying on being lucky doesn't exactly make my character feel any better about having to take someone who quite literally might be dead weight along.

Your character should be good at what they do, there is nothing wrong with being effective. Unawakened shadowrunners who refuse to dehumanize themselves with 'ware are like little kids complaining that something isn't fair. The Sixth World is not fair, it's nice that your character has some moral code they are trying to stick by, but it's dangerously naive.

For a good look at running without 'ware when you really should be, watch Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex. There is a character who is the sole unaugmented character in an elite squad of cyborgs, and while he has useful skills, he usually holds back or doesn't participate in the most dangerous missions at all. And when he does get into combat, he gets the crap beat out of him(this happens more than once). To start he gets artificial replacements for damaged organs, but eventually he bites the bullet and does get performance enhancing augmentations, despite his bias against them be he keeps getting shot up.

[Ol' Scratch]

Your character should be good at what they do, there is nothing wrong with being effective. Unawakened shadowrunners who refuse to dehumanize themselves with 'ware are like little kids complaining that something isn't fair. The Sixth World is not fair, it's nice that your character has some moral code they are trying to stick by, but it's dangerously naive.

Who says he's complaining? Maybe he sees it as a competition, a personal quest to excel at what he does without being a lazy, pathetic fool who can only do what he does by having cheap bits of chrome shoved into their body.

Once again, there are several concepts that work just fine without the need for magic or augmentation. And all of them are ones that don't require high personal Initiative Passes, which is the only thing augmentation really has going for it in the 2070s. Hackers and Riggers are the very top of that list. Even as awful as the baseline archetypes are in SR4A, several of them are essentially unaugmented (ie, they have implants that are completely unnecessary) mundanes. The two big ones are the Face (who only has an implanted commlink and datajack) and the Weapon Specialist (who doesn't even have so much as a dose of Cram). Even worse, many of the other archetypes have stats that can easily be duplicated in an unaugmented character with ease, despite being loaded with chrome.

As badly designed as they are, the Weapon Specialist in particular proves that unaugmented mundane characters do exist and get work in the shadows. There is only one thing -- one thing -- that they can't really do, and that's gain additional Initiative Passes with ease or regularity. Most everything else can be duplicated through technology or hard work, or is so minor in its actual benefits (2-3 extra dice) as to be negligible or offset through other means. And with options like Cram and Jazz available, even that one, major disadvantage is somewhat alleviated, at least over the short term.

I really have no idea why some of you have such a massive stick crammed up your netherholes about this. God forbid someone creates a completely viable and useful character who doesn't have any augmentations or magic. What's even more bizarre are the people talking about how impossible it is to do here, having apparently turned 180 in regards to their comments about Initiative boosters not being a necessity in another thread. XD

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

As badly as I would want an unaugmented character to be able to play in the same league, I have to say there is one significant hitch on the way: Point-buy limits. If the chrome guy and the unaugmented guy get 200BP of attributes, the chrome guy will be better. Skills are pretty expensive for both.And the mundane guy merely has more money for gear - so he might have the biggest van and the most drones, but that's about it.

I think it's just a basic defect of the BP system.

I think in order to make unaugmented characters not suck, you have to homebrew. Create a quality that allows lifting the limits. Put it in with the awakened/techno group so it they are exclusive, and make a downside of completely rejecting anything but deltaware.

For example:
Natural Superhuman, 20BP
Whatever random mutation is responsible, sometimes you find people who are just naturally better. Smarter, stronger, faster - or even all of that in one package. These people don't need ware to compete. They are just that good, all on their own. Their strength comes with downsides, thougth - where others can augment themselves with cheap ware, their bodies reject this. They take 2P damage per hour for every point of essence loss they incur from any kind of augmention. The only implants they can endure are cloned replacements or deltaware.
Effect: The Natural Superhuman is not tied down by the limitations of the rest of metahumanity. She can spend as many BP as she wishes on attributes. She is not limited to one attribute at her natural maximum and reaching the natural maximum does not cost extra BP - she merely spends 10 points per point. However, the value of her lowest attribute cannot be less than half, rounded up, of her highest attribute, prior to racial modifiers.

Obviously this is quicky and dirty... and I haven't run the numbers on it.

[Ryu]

Introducing a new quality that permits higher performance is IMO like SURGE - you are not doing it as straight, unspecial mundane. Kind of defeats the purpose here.

Regarding the archtypes: they can be outperformed by chars build with The Precious alone. Hardly a performance standard. For true combat specialists, not only the IP will be missing. I would like to see an unaugmented combatant that can compete with a proper samurai. Fight guards yes, fight gangers yes, but taking a samurai slot? I don´t see that. Show me?

[KarmaInferno]

Eh. If you want an in-game reason to not have 'ware, just take the Sensitive System quality.




-k

[Bigity]

For a good look at running without 'ware when you really should be, watch Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex. There is a character who is the sole unaugmented character in an elite squad of cyborgs, and while he has useful skills, he usually holds back or doesn't participate in the most dangerous missions at all. And when he does get into combat, he gets the crap beat out of him(this happens more than once). To start he gets artificial replacements for damaged organs, but eventually he bites the bullet and does get performance enhancing augmentations, despite his bias against them be he keeps getting shot up.

I can't say I've seen the SAC version, but I guess you missed the speech in the original movie where the major (whatever her name was) explains to the unaugmented guy why he's on the team - for perspective. And then a bunch of stuff about overspecialization is a way to 'wither and die'.

In short, they wanted him on the team, he wasn't considered a liability. But obviously he has limitations, just like the rest of them did. His were just different.

[Ascalaphus]

I can't say I've seen the SAC version, but I guess you missed the speech in the original movie where the major (whatever her name was) explains to the unaugmented guy why he's on the team - for perspective. And then a bunch of stuff about overspecialization is a way to 'wither and die'.

In short, they wanted him on the team, he wasn't considered a liability. But obviously he has limitations, just like the rest of them did. His were just different.

I think the same explanation is somewhere in the series too. And it's an interesting explanation, too.

[Critias]

I can't say I've seen the SAC version, but I guess you missed the speech in the original movie where the major (whatever her name was) explains to the unaugmented guy why he's on the team - for perspective. And then a bunch of stuff about overspecialization is a way to 'wither and die'.

In short, they wanted him on the team, he wasn't considered a liability. But obviously he has limitations, just like the rest of them did. His were just different.

It's never done Togusa any favors that in addition to being the "normal" of the team, he's also the kid. He's a cop and a family man, not a supercommando combat veteran who's been in the game for decades.

He's not always left behind because of his lack of augmentations, but because straight-up combat just wasn't his thing. It's not what he got hired for, it's not where his experience lays. He's the cop, on a team composed primarily of soldiers.

[TheOOB]

I can't say I've seen the SAC version, but I guess you missed the speech in the original movie where the major (whatever her name was) explains to the unaugmented guy why he's on the team - for perspective. And then a bunch of stuff about overspecialization is a way to 'wither and die'.

In short, they wanted him on the team, he wasn't considered a liability. But obviously he has limitations, just like the rest of them did. His were just different.

The movie isn't in cannon, either with the manga(where Togusa is augmented from the starts), or the anime series(Where he is used because of his skills as a police officer, but skill gets his ass handed to him when he evitably gets into a real fight, and gets augmented by the Solid State Society Movie).

As badly as I would want an unaugmented character to be able to play in the same league, I have to say there is one significant hitch on the way: Point-buy limits. If the chrome guy and the unaugmented guy get 200BP of attributes, the chrome guy will be better. Skills are pretty expensive for both.And the mundane guy merely has more money for gear - so he might have the biggest van and the most drones, but that's about it.

I think it's just a basic defect of the BP system.

I think in order to make unaugmented characters not suck, you have to homebrew. Create a quality that allows lifting the limits. Put it in with the awakened/techno group so it they are exclusive, and make a downside of completely rejecting anything but deltaware.

For example:
Natural Superhuman, 20BP
Whatever random mutation is responsible, sometimes you find people who are just naturally better. Smarter, stronger, faster - or even all of that in one package. These people don't need ware to compete. They are just that good, all on their own. Their strength comes with downsides, thougth - where others can augment themselves with cheap ware, their bodies reject this. They take 2P damage per hour for every point of essence loss they incur from any kind of augmention. The only implants they can endure are cloned replacements or deltaware.
Effect: The Natural Superhuman is not tied down by the limitations of the rest of metahumanity. She can spend as many BP as she wishes on attributes. She is not limited to one attribute at her natural maximum and reaching the natural maximum does not cost extra BP - she merely spends 10 points per point. However, the value of her lowest attribute cannot be less than half, rounded up, of her highest attribute, prior to racial modifiers.

Obviously this is quicky and dirty... and I haven't run the numbers on it.

The game has a naturally superhuman quality, it's called adept. There is also SURGE and various metavarients and sapient critters that are superhuman. The idea of a (meta)human who is just better than normal humans, able to be on par with cyborgs and awakened, without using 'ware or being awakened themselves is just silly and goes against the point of a dystopian setting. If trying hard and being good where enough to make it in the shadows, they wouldn't be as dangerous(and profitable) as they are.

I understand that some characters types don't need augmentation(though referencing the pre-gen characters kinda ruins anyone's argument, the pre-gen characters suck and oftentimes break the rules expressed in the previous chapter). But with the exception of stay at home hackers and riggers, those people are not really shadowrunners. The very word "Shadowrunner" implies a certain amount of steath and B&E work, and there are a lot of things you just need to be there in person to do. Without augmentations you are at a significant disadvantage in a real fight, as your only way of getting more IP's is edge(which is temporary and could be used for other purposes), and drugs(which are more damaging than 'ware). A simple goon with wired reflexes 1 has twice the actions you would have, which means twice the damage output. Surprise may be the most important factor in SR combat, but when suprise doesn't win a fight immediately, superior IP usually cleans up.

[Glyph]

Regarding the archtypes: they can be outperformed by chars build with The Precious alone. Hardly a performance standard. For true combat specialists, not only the IP will be missing. I would like to see an unaugmented combatant that can compete with a proper samurai. Fight guards yes, fight gangers yes, but taking a samurai slot? I don´t see that. Show me?

An unaugmented mundane can take a street samurai down by ambush - there are a kazillion one-shot kill attacks in the game. Even in a non-ambush situation, there are a lot of effective tactics, ranging from subdual combat, to monowhips, to stick-n-shock ammo, etc.

Taking the street samurai role is another thing altogether. The archetypal street samurai is not only great in combat, but is typically picking up the slack for the noncombattants of the team. He needs a good mix of dodging, damage soaking, armor, powerful weapons, and multiple initiative passes to take out large numbers of mooks while also drawing a large part of their fire.

An unaugmented character would be very suboptimal for that role, to the point that you would have to min-max the hell out of him in a lot of other ways, to partially compensate for that. Say, an ork with soft-maxed Body, Agility, and Reaction, with a ranged skill of 6 with a specialization (and maybe using a grenade launcher or recoil-compensated full-auto weapon, to take more than one enemy down with his one attack), using a smartlink and possibly a tacnet, with drones backing him up with both sensors and weaponry.

Still, it might not be that fun to play even if you make it work. I like playing against type as much as anyone, but I would probably be happier using an uncybered mundane for the roles he is less handicapped in, rather than trying to mash him into a sammie role.

[KarmaInferno]

I think, in short, an un-augmented character IS possible as a viable concept, but it will be difficult to keep up with the abilities of the rest of the team.

The character will almost certainly have to be min-maxed to a huge degree as far as the "unaugmented" restriction allows. It should probably be only attempted by someone who is well versed in the rules set.



-k

[Midas]

I too think an unaugmented mundane character is feasible, but agree they would be better as hackers, riggers or faces. As noted, high edge (or a Mr. Lucky) would be beneficial. For a combat type, not so easy but not impossible.

Surprised at the number of people saying "If you don't have Agility 9 and a ranged combat skill at 6, my character wouldn't play with you.", but then again, this is DS ...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I too think an unaugmented mundane character is feasible, but agree they would be better as hackers, riggers or faces. As noted, high edge (or a Mr. Lucky) would be beneficial. For a combat type, not so easy but not impossible.

Surprised at the number of people saying "If you don't have Agility 9 and a ranged combat skill at 6, my character wouldn't play with you.", but then again, this is DS ...

Indeed.... an Unaugmented character, while a few dice behind the augmented characters to be sure, would be, and have been, welcomed at our table as long as they could hold their own weight. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Saint Hallow]

Maybe if the campaign was a street level game with it difficult to get access to any good cyber/bioware tech, a totally unaugmented character could do well in combat.

[Cain]

Indeed.... an Unaugmented character, while a few dice behind the augmented characters to be sure, would be, and have been, welcomed at our table as long as they could hold their own weight. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

"Holding their own weight" is the tricky part. As overpowered as Edge is, you can't rely on it for everything. There's no concept that an unaugmented character can't do better than an augmented character, so even if you're dual-covering roles, the augmented character will simply have better screen time.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

The game has a naturally superhuman quality, it's called adept. There is also SURGE and various metavarients and sapient critters that are superhuman. The idea of a (meta)human who is just better than normal humans, able to be on par with cyborgs and awakened, without using 'ware or being awakened themselves is just silly and goes against the point of a dystopian setting. If trying hard and being good where enough to make it in the shadows, they wouldn't be as dangerous(and profitable) as they are.

Hehe, yes, Adepts are supposed to be like that, but then they are magical.

I can't give you a good example of either a character or a historical person who excels at everything, but with the way the BP system works, and the limits it imposes, it's quite impossible to build one. Even a hyper-specialised mundane will have problems.

[Ol' Scratch]

Surprised at the number of people saying "If you don't have Agility 9 and a ranged combat skill at 6, my character wouldn't play with you.", but then again, this is DS ...

Yeah, that really does seem to be the main problem with the naysayers.

[Kirk]

Yeah, that really does seem to be the main problem with the naysayers.

Actually, they've got a point.

IF everyone's running roughly similar capabilities, then everyone plays. The under-numbered mundane repeats the SR3 Decker problem. Challenges for the group force the mundane to wait in the car or back home. Challenges for the mundane are either insignificant to the group or in an area where they can't play.

A group that plays together may intentionally shift so the mundane can be a part - say, don't build a face with cyber or magic so the mundane can take that role. But it's an intentional compromise on a per group basis.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

"Holding their own weight" is the tricky part. As overpowered as Edge is, you can't rely on it for everything. There's no concept that an unaugmented character can't do better than an augmented character, so even if you're dual-covering roles, the augmented character will simply have better screen time.

This is very true. But in my experience, those types of characters ARE viable. It really depends upon your table, and what the table DP's are a s a baseline. If the baseline is mid to high teens (for primary pools), then your unaugmented character will struggle; if, on the other hand, the table baseline is 10-12 DP, the Unaugmented character can reliably compete, and often with more skills than the augmented character possesses. It is a play style that can be fun, from time to time. Me personally, I like just a little augmentation (of one type or another), more often than not.

[suoq]

Surprised at the number of people saying "If you don't have Agility 9 and a ranged combat skill at 6, my character wouldn't play with you.", but then again, this is DS ...

I think you're overstating their case.

It's not just the 3 points of agility, it's the 13 other build points the mundane also has to do without and either the loss of IPs, or the loss of Edge converting to IPs, or the drug question . There's a bunch of pointless sacrifices here that the OP never gave us a reason for.

The character needs to bring SOMETHING to the table and unfortunately, we're on a quest to find out what that something is with no feedback from the OP. Some suggestions I like such as "100% pass cyberware & magic inspection at security checkpoints", I haven't seen such a build fleshed out yet, but I'd like to see abilities like "Juryrigger" in it because in that sort of situation, you don't get to bring an army of drones or incredibly cool gear. The issue with that build is how well does such a character play WITH a team of cybered/magic characters. Being able to go where they can't means splitting the team.

There's always old standbys such as Mr. Lucky or a face hacker (though the OP's request for combat capable may or may not throw a wrench in there depending on what the OP actually meant by combat capable) but I'm lost on how his lack of 'ware/magic has any real meaning for such a character. One could make the same character without the limitation and I don't think it would affect enjoyment one bit.

I always wonder if there's some box to be ticked off "Achievement: Played Shadowrun character without magic or ware".

[Neraph]

Isn't this really a thread about whether or not the Weapon Specialist from the core book is viable?

[DamienKnight]

Isn't this really a thread about whether or not the Weapon Specialist from the core book is viable?

She is not. Question answered! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Ol' Scratch]

Actually, they've got a point.

IF everyone's running roughly similar capabilities, then everyone plays. The under-numbered mundane repeats the SR3 Decker problem. Challenges for the group force the mundane to wait in the car or back home. Challenges for the mundane are either insignificant to the group or in an area where they can't play.

Only if you assume that everyone else at the table is a min/maxing powergamer. Implants are supposed to be an easy way to get good stats, yes, but the game wasn't designed around min/maxers, nor should players be bullied and ridiculed into not creating the type of character they want to have fun with just because of a bunch of min/maxers on a message forum. Especially when such a concept is viable, albeit difficult, and doubly so when the 'fluff' supports it just fine. Again, one of the base archetypes is an unaugmented mundane character. It doesn't matter that all of the archetypes are poorly designed. That's not the point.

And badgering the original poster for wanting to make such a character is really all this thread is now.

[DamienKnight]

Only if you assume that everyone else at the table is a min/maxing powergamer. Implants are supposed to be an easy way to get good stats, yes, but the game wasn't designed around min/maxers, nor should players be bullied and ridiculed into not creating the type of character they want to have fun with just because of a bunch of min/maxers on a message forum. Especially when such a concept is viable, albeit difficult, and doubly so when the 'fluff' supports it just fine. Again, one of the base archetypes is an unaugmented mundane character. It doesn't matter that all of the archetypes are poorly designed. That's not the point.

And badgering the original poster for wanting to make such a character is really all this thread is now.

Ehhhh... so Cyberware only gives a significant advantage if you are a minmaxer? LoLz

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ehhhh... so Cyberware only gives a significant advantage if you are a minmaxer? LoLz

Cyberware always provides an advantage. It provides a SIGNIFICANT advantage to a min-maxer... Heh... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)