Shapeshifters and "Not Always Quite Human" Optional Rule Options

[Gamer6432]

This came up in DamienKnight's Upgraded Character Generator Thread:

What the book says:

Not Always Quite Human
Shapeshifters look mostly human—normally. Through
some quirk of magic or paragenetics, some shapeshifters
can transform into a form that more closely resembles another
metatype, or even metavariants. This is represented
by changing their Shift (Human) power to another, as
appropriate—Shift (Elf), Shift (Oni), etc.—and spending an
additional number of BP equal to the typical cost for that
race –10 BP. A shapeshifter with a different metatype gains
their standard metatype abilities (see Metatype Attribute
Table, p. 72, SR4) when in that form.

The way I read this is that you pay the Shapeshifter metatype cost plus the standard cost of whatever non-human metatype you want, then subtract 10 BP (so a Fox Shifter with Shift (Ork) would be 60 BP total). What you get for the extra BP cost is that metatype's abilities when not in animal form. You do not get any attribute bumps, but retain the Shapeshifter's attributes in both forms.

The way DK has it in his awesome character generator (as of version v) is you pay the full shifter+metatype cost and gain extra abilities including attribute bumps (up and down) as appropriate for the metatype.

So, the question is, which is it? Obviously a GM can rule whatever he and his group like for their own house game.

[Ol' Scratch]

It's the former. You only get the extras, like a troll's reach and dermal armor, an elf's low-light vision, or a human's +1 to Edge (which is listed as an actual racial bonus of +1, not simply a change to the Attribute Minimums and Maximums). But since humans are the baseline for a 'shifter, you don't really get that one as an option.

[Draco18s]

In b4 DK says "I'm still not changing it."

Maybe after like four versions and enough badgering he'll make it a toggle in the settings like the cyber armor averaging. And give it another asinine name.

[bibliophile20]

I've been playing it as:
in animal form, they use the stat minimums/maximums given in Runner's Comp. In Metahuman form, the modifiers for the chosen race are applied on top of the existing stats (yes, this means that a bear-troll is rather freaking scary, but also extremely expensive, BP-wise, and I trust my players not to abuse the option).

So far, it's only been used by me for NPCs; I've got an elf-fox and a wolf-ork, both of whom are otherwise non-optimized.

[Draco18s]

A Bear Troll is only 110 BP, and for it they'd get (under the combined stats law) 11 body and 11 strength for free.
Each of which is individually worth 100 BP.

[DamienKnight]

This came up in DamienKnight's Upgraded Character Generator Thread:

What the book says:

The way I read this is that you pay the Shapeshifter metatype cost plus the standard cost of whatever non-human metatype you want, then subtract 10 BP (so a Fox Shifter with Shift (Ork) would be 60 BP total). What you get for the extra BP cost is that metatype's abilities when not in animal form. You do not get any attribute bumps, but retain the Shapeshifter's attributes in both forms.

The way DK has it in his awesome character generator (as of version v) is you pay the full shifter+metatype cost and gain extra abilities including attribute bumps (up and down) as appropriate for the metatype.

So, the question is, which is it? Obviously a GM can rule whatever he and his group like for their own house game.

I had not noticed the -10 BP. That does make sense that you would not get attribute bonuses (or penalties) if you are shaving 10 BP off the cost.

I also see on the Matatype Attribute Table it clearly labels the 'Metatype Abilities' as their non-attribute advantages.

Point conceded, thanks for laying this out so clearly Gamer6432.

[Draco18s]

I had not noticed the -10 BP. That does make sense that you would not get attribute bonuses (or penalties) if you are shaving 10 BP off the cost.

I also see on the Matatype Attribute Table it clearly labels the 'Metatype Abilities' as their non-attribute advantages.

And this is why I didn't make a thread about it, because it's pretty clear what the intent of the rules was.

Admittedly, if I didn't see the -10 cost and the "Metatype Abilities" column either, I'd be more willing to dispute. Simply saying "see this table" does make it sound like that whole table is to be used, but when one actually looks at the table and sees the column name and what they were told to reference it becomes more clear.

[bibliophile20]

A Bear Troll is only 110 BP, and for it they'd get (under the combined stats law) 11 body and 11 strength for free.
Each of which is individually worth 100 BP.

At which point, if someone at my table tried that, I'd shrug and say, "sorry, there's only one of those on then entire planet and I've already statted him out. Try again." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Past a certain point, it's the GM's call to keep extreme munchkinry out of his table. Still, point well taken. Thankfully, it hasn't come up yet.

(and given how rare shapeshifters, bear shapeshifters and trolls are, I think that call is reasonable... heck, it's almost like the Fermi Equation....)

[CanRay]

I want to make a Troll Bear Shapeshifter now... Just to see what my group does against a Troll with those stats that thinks like a bear and regenerates from their gunshots and katana slices.

"Do we have a Plan C?" "Hit it with the truck?"

[Draco18s]

I want to make a Troll Bear Shapeshifter now... Just to see what my group does against a Troll with those stats that thinks like a bear and regenerates from their gunshots and katana slices.

"Do we have a Plan C?" "Hit it with the truck?"

See if you can find the stats for Bear Who Walks Through Walls. I think Bobson posted the build in the 800 BP thread (Bear was a 400 BP character, originally) but I'm not certain of that fact.

In any case, Bear could melee objects for about 42 DV (inc. net hits).

One of his stunts was a guard pulled a gun on him. Bear reached out and crushed the gun in one huge paw.

He was also a total pacifist.

[KCKitsune]

"Do we have a Plan C?" "Hit it with the truck?"

Panther assault cannons and Gauss rifles FTW.

Cheaper and easier to aim and hit with those than a truck.

[CanRay]

Trucks are easier to have around in plain view, and even easier to steal when needed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Never said it was THEIR truck. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Bodak]

The way I read this is that you pay the Shapeshifter metatype cost plus the standard cost of whatever non-human metatype you want, then subtract 10 BP (so a Fox Shifter with Shift (Ork) would be 60 BP total). What you get for the extra BP cost is that metatype's abilities when not in animal form. You do not get any attribute bumps, but retain the Shapeshifter's attributes in both forms.

The way DK has it in his awesome character generator (as of version v) is you pay the full shifter+metatype cost and gain extra abilities including attribute bumps (up and down) as appropriate for the metatype.

So, the question is, which is it? Obviously a GM can rule whatever he and his group like for their own house game.

You have already read this thread's discussion all about this right? I thought that addressed it quite thoroughly.

If you are using the Not Always Quite Human Optional Rule (p.87, RC), does that change the shapeshifter's attributes?

No, unless the metavariant possesses the Metagenetic Improvement Quality. Shapeshifter characters under the Not Always Quite Human Optional Rule gain the Metatype Abilities (p.81, SR4A), including any Metagenetic Qualities if they choose a metavariant (pp.71-72, Ars) when shifted into that form.

Cecilia wishes to make a bear shapeshifter character and use the Not Always Quite Human option so that his other form is that of a troll. The additional cost of this option is 40 BP (troll metatype cost) - 10 BP, for a total of 30 BP. On her character sheet, Cecilia writes down the Shift(Troll) Critter Power. In bear form, Cecilia's character has the bear shapeshifter's normal shifter abilities (+1 Reach, +1 natural armor, Enhanced Sense (Smell)); in troll form her character adds a troll's metatype abilities (for a total of +2 Reach, +1 natural armor, Enhanced Senses (Smell, Thermographic Vision).

[Udoshi]

Yeah, BearTrollShifters used to be the cream of the crop when it came to punching people. If you were a charisma tradition, elf/eagle was also really solid.

It needed a nerf, sadly.

[Ol' Scratch]

That's from a FAQ, not Errata. It was never misprinted. Some people just never bothered to read what it said nor check the referenced table.

[Draco18s]

You have already read this thread's discussion all about this right?

I forgot about that thread.

I thought that addressed it quite thoroughly.

Indeed.

[Jhaiisiin]

The downside comes when you want to be say... an Elf or Ork Fox, Wolf, Leopard/Jaguar, seal or Tiger/Lion shifter, then all you get for your extra BP is... a change of appearance. So you spend 10bp extra for *looking* like an ork (which means *more* negative social modifiers) or 20bp more to just *look* like the elf, which you could take the Elf Poser NEGATIVE quality and get the same result.

It's poorly thought out. Taking the higher of the available stats (to represent a "peak" version of the shifter) would likely make more sense, but unfortunately not RAW.

[Yerameyahu]

I wouldn't call it the same as Elf Poser, but yup, a little weird. I'm happy to call it a tax on being a weird shapeshifter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)