[X] My Assistant

[sunnyside]

Incidentally, the Uncouth character has all those skills at X rating (worse than 0), and pays through the nose to raise them. So… yeah, he's much worse. That's more a problem with Uncouth than with the social system, perhaps. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I guess it's easier on uncouth in the old version. Maybe that's a deliberate change because it was so easy to bypass the drawbacks as far as defending agaisnt social skills was concerned.

[Whipstitch]

They do have a marked habit of fixing the wrong problems.

[Glyph]

The problem with Uncouth is that, since social skills are resisted with social skills, and uncouth characters can't even default on social skills they don't have, then uncouth characters don't really get any resistance roll at all versus social skills.

Now, I personally would not interpret that as meaning that anyone can make an uncouth character do anything. The examples of social skills show that, despite opposed tests not using thresholds, social skills do kind of have them, in that more successes seem to imply more control. To that, I would add that you need a modicum of plausibility to even attempt a social skill, and depending on what you do, negative modifiers will likely apply. So, for example, a girl scout with a switchblade probably wouldn't even get to roll to intimidate the troll bounty hunter, while the average ganger would suffer significant penalties, and would need a number of successes - one success might get him to flinch, two might get him to be cautious, three might get him to look for a way to back off while still saving face, etc.

But even treated reasonably, uncouth still remains an absolutely terrible quality - one of SR4's "trap" options.

[sunnyside]

They do have a marked habit of fixing the wrong problems.

Eh, I can sort of see it. In the old version, if you never intended to use charisma offensively you tweak things so you were getting disadvantage BP for "free".

It sounds like in the anniversary edition you really get a character with some vulnerabilities.

But even treated reasonably, uncouth still remains an absolutely terrible quality - one of SR4's "trap" options.

I don't like it because it can hurt RP.

But runners are a team. So you can have the little face and the big troll and a "of mice and men" dynamic going on that can keep both happy.

I'd allow the troll to grant the little face the "physically imposing" bonus if he's standing sufficiently close.

[thorya]

Ugh. They do flip back and forth about what to use in their examples and the table vs the text. But I think those make sense and they're what I've used.

Yeah, silly me. Looking in the section on using Charisma linked skills for how to use Charisma linked skills like Con. I agree the system is better if you use the section that says Con+Intuition.

Also dislike leadership being opposed by your leadership. Could we use your team's leader's Leadership+ your willpower? Also, what does it mean for someone to use leadership on you? Is this for if you try to convince a lone star patrol to follow your orders because you're actually their lieutenant? (joking) It seems like it should be used by your Face to somehow benefit the rest of the team.

I know that Perception is used for opposing Etiquette, but I still feel like social perception is fundamentally different than awareness of your surroundings.

[Whipstitch]

I've always viewed Leadership as basically making an appeal to authority and thus it's a good bet whenever you're being honest but are not threatening anyone or trying to exchange favors. For example, locating the extraction target and saying "Come with me if you want to live" could totally be treated as either a Leadership or Intimidate check.

[sunnyside]

I know that Perception is used for opposing Etiquette, but I still feel like social perception is fundamentally different than awareness of your surroundings.

Etiquette is a lot about how you're dressing, acting, etc. Those are actually related to noticing things. Since 4th ed SR doesn't do things like 1/2 perception + 1/2 etiquette I can see them breaking for perception. But I could see it the other way too.

Also dislike leadership being opposed by your leadership. Could we use your team's leader's Leadership+ your willpower? Also, what does it mean for someone to use leadership on you? Is this for if you try to convince a lone star patrol to follow your orders because you're actually their lieutenant? (joking) It seems like it should be used by your Face to somehow benefit the rest of the team.

I suppose the lone star example could be a highly penalized con roll followed by a leadership roll. But I don't think leadership was handled the best.

I've always viewed Leadership as basically making an appeal to authority and thus it's a good bet whenever you're being honest but are not threatening anyone or trying to exchange favors. For example, locating the extraction target and saying "Come with me if you want to live" could totally be treated as either a Leadership or Intimidate check.

The way SR structures things I could see that also being con. But the distiction of which one it is should be clear based on the situation.

If you're making it clear that if they don't come with you than YOU'LL kill them, it'd be pure intimidation.
If it's basically a lie (not going with you would be safer) it'd be con. (and it'd have more penalties)
If you're telling the truth and this is a persuasive type thing, that would be leadership.

Since leadership has the "example" aspect as opposed to only the appeal to authority side, and because of the specializations, I rather use it as a catchall for things that aren't examples of conning, intimidation, or negotiation.

And I find that fits well with the modifiers. For example a firefighter, cop, other relevant authority figure should obviously get a bonus to a statement like that.

It's biggest use I find is with NPCs though. I play where NPCs aren't all fight to the death types. Older editions would often specify that if a given NPC or type of goon took a certain amount of damage they'd run; I liked that and still do it. So a leadership roll is used to try and rally the other gangers or whatever.

In this context the leadership vs leadership and rank vs rank thing makes sense, because the other guys want to retreat, and rank and leadership would play into that. It works well for power struggles too.

But I suppose in other settings it can be more awkward.

[Draco18s]

Etiquette is a lot about how you're dressing, acting, etc.

Etiquette is a knowledge skill, seriously. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)
There's no active use of it.

[sunnyside]

Etiquette is a knowledge skill, seriously. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)
There's no active use of it.

I could see having knowledge skills that allow you to know what to wear, how these people hold their drinks, and what people are talking about when they start going on whatever sports or art that group is into. As the GM I could see requiring such a roll in some cases in order to avoid or gain the various modifiers from the table. I think that's actually sort of implied if not explicitly laid out. And I notice that the writers like to give facey characters slews of knowledge skills.

After that, however, etiquette is very much an active skill. It is one thing to know, in an academic sense, what is proper, and it is something else entirely to actually navigate the waters of avoiding saying or doing the many many wrong things while still engaging in conversation and other things that demonstrate that you fit in, and doing them right.

Especially since the skill includes being able to fake it, and since, mechanically, the skill is used mostly to win friends via interaction and conversation. That's a very "active" thing, and one that definitly should be linked to charisma not logic.

[Draco18s]

The problem is that Etiquette is a passive skill. You don't ever say "I'm using Etiquette" for anything. It's...more like a knowledge skill ("Do I know X?" *roll* "Am I acting properly?" *roll*)

[sunnyside]

You don't ever say "I'm using Etiquette" for anything.

What? Of course you do. Again its chief purpose is making friends. If a face has time and circumstances allow, they'll usually open up with an attempt to use etiquette in order to buddy up to the mark and shift their attitude. This gives the face more dice when they get down to business.

It can also be used if you're out trying to develop some contacts, when doing a little legwork, get through the ritzy party to the maintenence closet, or to spice up downtime.

Passive rolls are less common, usually the face has a reason for being out and about and having the GM spotlight shining on them, and they're the one asking for the etiquette roll. I find most of the time if they don't ask for the roll they're fishing for a "gimmie" from the GM, i.e. setting up the bugs and demo charges in the biker bar shouldn't even require a roll for their character.

[Yerameyahu]

Just go read about it on p133-4. There are several 'active' options.

It's not really my fave skill, but it has some function in the current setup.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The problem is that Etiquette is a passive skill. You don't ever say "I'm using Etiquette" for anything. It's...more like a knowledge skill ("Do I know X?" *roll* "Am I acting properly?" *roll*)

Excuse Me?

[Draco18s]

Excuse Me?

Man, I love you guys. </sarcasm> This is the third time I've mentioned that sentiment in this thread and only now does anyone quibble about it.

[Yerameyahu]

It's not a very important issue, either way; accordingly, it wasn't addressed before we'd dealt with the important ones. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Whipstitch]

I didn't really say anything because I more or less agreed with the statement. I've long held the suspicion that the way many people use Etiquette isn't really reflected by the RAW itself. Etiquette has its own separate write up from the rest of the social skills and generally isn't use for convincing people of anything in particular but rather for making small talk, covering gaffes and paving the way for the other social skills by tinkering with the subject's attitude modifier. It's great if people are already inclined to volunteer information or you have to survive a dinner party with your rep intact but aside from that it's mostly an enabler.

[Draco18s]

Right, and if we look at the word itself:

Etiquette is a code of behavior that delineates expectations for social behavior according to contemporary conventional norms within a society, social class, or group.
From the French étiquette

The French Court of Louis XIV at Versailles used étiquettes, "little cards", to remind courtiers to keep off of the grass and similar rules, hence the sense of “rule”. More at stick (verb), stitch.
[edit] Noun

étiquette f (plural étiquettes)

1. tag, label
2. etiquette, prescribed behavior

Nothing from this definition makes me think of performing an action (huh, fancy that, "etiquette" is a noun), but rather a way of holding one's self. Subtle social cues, things not to say, grammar and pronunciation style (think: southern drawl versus terse New Yorker).

To me, Etiquette seems like it would be more at home as a limiter on hits on social tests, or at best a fallback panic button ("oops, said the wrong thing, quick, recover!") and not really worthy on its own merit to be a full active skill.

[Yerameyahu]

What if you just go read about it on p133-4. There are several 'active' options. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Whipstitch]

RAW beats common use every time. It's like how punching people in the face isn't a Physical Skill linked to Physical Attributes.

[Draco18s]

What if you just go read about it on p133-4. There are several 'active' options. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Which book?
'Cause p133 of my core book (available here at work) is totally the initiative section of combat. I think you meant p121.

In any case, the rules and uses for Etiquette are largely useless. It is a rare situation indeed that one can manage to talk to a hostile character and make them feel at ease.

Also,

Etiquette skill also encompasses a character’s ingrained
ability to feel a situation out, to instinctively know what
is proper or what will get the character what she wants.

Instinctive ability is not an active skill. It is a subconscious effect, like knowledge or flinching away from sources of pain.

[Whipstitch]

Yerameyahu was citing the anniversary edition. I don't think they changed much.

Also, none of what you are talking about matters.

[Draco18s]

Yerameyahu was citing the anniversary edition. I don't think they changed much.

I remember a time when we prefaced things with SR4 and SR4A.

Also, none of what you are talking about matters.

Que?

[Whipstitch]

First off, there's a reason that your quote has the word "also" in there: there's a write up of non-instinctive learned social habits preceding and following your quote which describes Etiquette as broad set of learned responses and tricks that definitely can be defined as an active skill. Knowing when to tip, how to bow gracefully or when to use the correct fork is not instinctive knowledge, but it is incorporated into the Etiquette skill. Again, common use dictionary references are a slippery slope from which to view the rules. Defining skill as only being learned tricks is a fool's errand given that the rules consistently include things that are in large part a matter of personal aptitude such as Perception or Running alongside technical skills like Demolitions.

[Yerameyahu]

I don't remember that time, Draco18s. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) SR4A is the correct version, currently.

[Glyph]

Etiquette has some qualities of a knowledge skill, in that a GM can call for an etiquette roll to see if you know or notice something. But it is still more of an active skill. It is an opposed test that acts as a combination of social disguise and making people's attitudes more friendly towards your character. For uses of the former (your ganger not getting kicked out of the high society dinner, you suit making those troll bikers loosen up and crack jokes around him), it stands on its own. For uses of the latter (improving people's reactions to your character and negating social gaffes), it makes the use of subsequent skills, such as con, easier.