[X] My Assistant

[Critias]

Getting upset about an argument over the intertubes on a forum is.. well just silly. Maybe I've got a bit of a troll in me and just like poking buttons and seeing some of yall get all riled up. I was really hoping JC had gone off about my comment in that Strawberry Shortcake Orc thread cause he seems the most excitable right now (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

Edit: Besides.. look at how much discussion, both on topic and off, about the pros and cons of Akimbo style and two guns on one target has gone on (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So just trolling then. Okay.

[Miri]

So just trolling then. Okay.

Trolling to get a discussion going. Lots of number crunching, peoples real life experience, etc etc.

[Critias]

I...don't see how you think much of that came about from your posts, in particular, especially the ones that consisted only of you misunderstanding the rules and then deriding others for not houseruling things. But, well, okay. Whatever floats your boat, I guess. Your most memorable contributions to this thread seemed a bit less constructive than that, to me, but I'm not a mod so it's a moot point.

[Saint Hallow]

I can see dual wielding machine pistols/smg's to get the same amount of fire as an assault rifle. Not damage... just bullet spraying. Blanketing an area or doing wide, crazy bursts so you give covering fire.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

I can see dual wielding machine pistols/smg's to get the same amount of fire as an assault rifle. Not damage... just bullet spraying. Blanketing an area or doing wide, crazy bursts so you give covering fire.

Naw, you do it for two long bursts per round (and no other bursts). Which is also a just semi-unproblematic interpretation, as in, the rules are unclear but might allow that interpretation. At least that's how I remember it.

I'm still a friend of 2x Ruger Warhawks - you use full DP, look totally cool, and don't need to overmod the weapons to get SA fire. You do run into the usual problem that semi-auto has been gimped to death in SR4. You can't use it against any serious opposition, because a useless action (yours, semi-auto fire) and a second useless action (theirs, a full dodge) means no effect at all for the round - unless you get into huge attack DP territory. So after you've taken their action you can watch the full-auto mooks with half your DP, like drones and stuff, tear into them where your attacks just pinged because your base damage was simply soaked or got turned into some stun.

[ Spoiler ]

Numbers example from karmagen, not super-optimised:
9 Agi + 5(+2) skill + smart: 18 dice. This is approximately what our non-super-optimised sam/face is throwing. YES, tacnet and yada yada is missing. The opposition might have that, too.
That same sam/face:
8 Rea +4(+2) dodge = 14 dice. That's 1.33 net hits on average for the attack. On a sporter or Warhawk that's still 7-8P/-2 or so with ExEx, so it probably will do damage, but hardly hurt a lot. The second shot will be just slightly better. Now add cover for 0 average net hits on the first attack.

Now take the Drone with 10 dice on autonomous (4pilot+autosoft+smart) firing a full wide burst:
10 attack dice vs 5 def dice for 1.66 net hits. Granted with cover that attack DP is now so low that the same thing will happen, and arguably damage will be lower becuase most people won't spam expensive ammo from drones, so the 6P/-1 base of the LMG will be stuck in the armour, too.

So... unless you snipe while not being seen, semi-auto is just gimped.

But this is ranting on a different topic.

D&D and TWF is too much of a long story. As in, it went from being the done thing to being the crap option. So... that's a stupid fix. Also, you can hardly compare the systems. In D&D, basically a character who can only deal damage is fully functional, while in SR he's largely useless 90% of the time.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Naw, you do it for two long bursts per round (and no other bursts). Which is also a just semi-unproblematic interpretation, as in, the rules are unclear but might allow that interpretation. At least that's how I remember it.

I'm still a friend of 2x Ruger Warhawks - you use full DP, look totally cool, and don't need to overmod the weapons to get SA fire. You do run into the usual problem that semi-auto has been gimped to death in SR4. You can't use it against any serious opposition, because a useless action (yours, semi-auto fire) and a second useless action (theirs, a full dodge) means no effect at all for the round - unless you get into huge attack DP territory. So after you've taken their action you can watch the full-auto mooks with half your DP, like drones and stuff, tear into them where your attacks just pinged because your base damage was simply soaked or got turned into some stun.

[ Spoiler ]

Numbers example from karmagen, not super-optimised:
9 Agi + 5(+2) skill + smart: 18 dice. This is approximately what our non-super-optimised sam/face is throwing. YES, tacnet and yada yada is missing. The opposition might have that, too.
That same sam/face:
8 Rea +4(+2) dodge = 14 dice. That's 1.33 net hits on average for the attack. On a sporter or Warhawk that's still 7-8P/-2 or so with ExEx, so it probably will do damage, but hardly hurt a lot. The second shot will be just slightly better. Now add cover for 0 average net hits on the first attack.

Now take the Drone with 10 dice on autonomous (4pilot+autosoft+smart) firing a full wide burst:
10 attack dice vs 5 def dice for 1.66 net hits. Granted with cover that attack DP is now so low that the same thing will happen, and arguably damage will be lower becuase most people won't spam expensive ammo from drones, so the 6P/-1 base of the LMG will be stuck in the armour, too.

So... unless you snipe while not being seen, semi-auto is just gimped.

But this is ranting on a different topic.

Ummmmm..... Semi Auto is NOT gimped. I kill more characters/Mooks with Semi Auto than with Full Automatic Weapons fire. Maybe you are just doing it wrong? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

If anything, I'd compare to short bursts. There's basically nothing SA can do that 3-round can't, +2. Except *not* waste pricey ammo. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If anything, I'd compare to short bursts. There's basically nothing SA can do that 3-round can't, +2. Except *not* waste pricey ammo. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Burst Fire is more noticeable, though, even if only in Fluff. I do agree that you could just use short Bursts. But then again, not all weapons are capable of such activity either, and it is a pretty pricey upgrade (Though I guess not to most shadowrunners, who tend to have money).

And the Ammo thing too... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Ummmmm..... Semi Auto is NOT gimped. I kill more characters/Mooks with Semi Auto than with Full Automatic Weapons fire. Maybe you are just doing it wrong? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ok... so.. what is there to do wrong? There are no decisions to make, it's just point and click, roll the dice.

Ok, maybe saying it's gimped is the wrong angle. It's just clearly inferior to everything else, as soon as you really want to take the guy down. I would tend to say the same thing: you can shoot more expensive ammo, but for that to be noticable, ammo costs should vary more. If S&S cost 200 or more per round people would really think about using it in an assault rifle or machine gun (at least one without an ammo selector), but I could put it in a handgun without as much as a thought. The same with APDS and the like.

Basically in my SR career I've liked to play a lot of semi-auto toting guys, and I can say that in SR4 I've been a bit frustrated while doing so, something I never (rarely) felt in SR3. In SR4 you need definite dicepool superiority to make use of semi-auto, while a mook firing long wide bursts can quickly get really dangerous.

That may be intentional, I don't know. I would LIKE semi-auto to be better, that's all. (Actually, I want recoil to be worse, as in, range dependant.)

[Shinobi Killfist]

I really am not a fan of how dual wielding works. Outside of dice pool monsters it just isn't effective. In some systems everyone dual wields, in SR4 I don't see anyone dual wield I'd kind of like a balance, where it is a viable option for people without having to make dice pool monsters but it isn't overpowered. I think the smartgun link should apply, it just makes sense and honestly I don't see 2 dice throwing the balance off that much.

Ok... so.. what is there to do wrong? There are no decisions to make, it's just point and click, roll the dice.

Ok, maybe saying it's gimped is the wrong angle. It's just clearly inferior to everything else, as soon as you really want to take the guy down. I would tend to say the same thing: you can shoot more expensive ammo, but for that to be noticable, ammo costs should vary more. If S&S cost 200 or more per round people would really think about using it in an assault rifle or machine gun (at least one without an ammo selector), but I could put it in a handgun without as much as a thought. The same with APDS and the like.

Basically in my SR career I've liked to play a lot of semi-auto toting guys, and I can say that in SR4 I've been a bit frustrated while doing so, something I never (rarely) felt in SR3. In SR4 you need definite dicepool superiority to make use of semi-auto, while a mook firing long wide bursts can quickly get really dangerous.

That may be intentional, I don't know. I would LIKE semi-auto to be better, that's all. (Actually, I want recoil to be worse, as in, range dependant.)

I agree with this. In SR2-3 I got a lotmore one shot or 2 shot kills with semi auto than I do now. Now If I want to kill with a gun in an action it is all about the burst fire or a absurd dice pool.

[Yerameyahu]

I guess it's a personal thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm pretty okay with it *not* being a viable option except for the true masters, but that's admittedly less cinematic.

[Saint Sithney]

I really am not a fan of how dual wielding works. Outside of dice pool monsters it just isn't effective. In some systems everyone dual wields, in SR4 I don't see anyone dual wield I'd kind of like a balance, where it is a viable option for people without having to make dice pool monsters but it isn't overpowered. I think the smartgun link should apply, it just makes sense and honestly I don't see 2 dice throwing the balance off that much.

There's a good reason to dual wield besides shooting both guns at the same time. That reason is to trade bursts and split RC between weapons so that you can use autofire and sound suppression effectively. It also means that you don't have to worry about ammunition as much on guns with low cap.

For example there's guns like the Ruger thunderbolt. BF only and 12 rounds in the clip means you're empty in 2 passes. Dual wield to trade bursts and you're no longer looking at unmanageable recoil and empty guns.

[KarmaInferno]

I personally don't like that the guys who invests a ton into skill and attribute gets hosed when dual-wielding compared to the guy who just relies on gear.

Take a schmoe with 2 Agility, 2 Pistols, 2 Specialization. Slap a rating 4 TacNet on him. He gets a dual-wield dice pool of 8/8.

Take another "skilled pro" with 4 Agility, 6 Pistols, 2 Specialization, and he gets... 7/7.

Really, I find that any time you use "half" or other percentage based modifiers to tests in Shadowrun, you run into problems. The "-half armor" weapons. Dual wielding. And so on. The game really works best with flat modifiers instead of percentages.



-k

[CanRay]

So just trolling then. Okay.

*Puts on rap music* They see me trollin', they be hatin'... Tryin' to catch me postin' somethin' dirty!

[Yerameyahu]

It's not like he couldn't get that tacnet, though. I'm not too worried about that aspect of the game, and it applies to non-halved things just as badly. If anything, the culprit is abuse of the 'modifiers post-split', and the suspicious lack of penalties.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I personally don't like that the guys who invests a ton into skill and attribute gets hosed when dual-wielding compared to the guy who just relies on gear.

Take a schmoe with 2 Agility, 2 Pistols, 2 Specialization. Slap a rating 4 TacNet on him. He gets a dual-wield dice pool of 8/8.

Take another "skilled pro" with 4 Agility, 6 Pistols, 2 Specialization, and he gets... 7/7.

Really, I find that any time you use "half" or other percentage based modifiers to tests in Shadowrun, you run into problems. The "-half armor" weapons. Dual wielding. And so on. The game really works best with flat modifiers instead of percentages.


-k

But why is Joe Schmoe the Newb using a Military Grade Tacnet, while the Professional is not? Give him a Tacnet as well (of the same rating) and now you have Dice Polols of 11/11 vs. that 8/8. And 16 Base Dice vs. Joe Schmoes 10. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Saint Sithney]

TacNets are a problem in themselves. They provide an unrealistic bonus.
Either the information that they provide is so specific and predictive that a person using one would be 1) overwhelmed or 2) just following instructions, or the information they provide is so generic that it's 1) irrelevant or 2) something the person should already know from their training and experience.

It's just dice bloat like Emotitoys/Empathy Sensor Software. Something that every pro has by default just to demonstrate the gap between professionals and chuds.

But really, it's like a machine is doing your job for you, and it would be more akin to a secondary viewpoint (like a teamwork test) than a bonus. IOW, if it knows where your gun is pointed and is to accurate at predicting enemy movements, why doesn't it just pull the trigger for you.


As to why laser sights and smartlinks don't work while you're shooting two guns at the same time, the RL answer is easy.
When you shoot two guns at once, you are no longer aiming. You're just counting on your ability to point and shoot.

[Yerameyahu]

But that's what they're for: not-aiming. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ggodo]

Thematically I always pictured them like the hud you get when using Grenades in Gears of War. A trajectory line superimposed over your vision by either glasses or cyber. The tech part would also give you an ammo counter and probably automate many actions for you.

[Saint Sithney]

There's a difference between intuitive shooting and watching a dot, much less two dots at once. And there's a big difference between shooting at independent targets and shooting at independent moving targets.

Even on the same target with different colored dots, you're going to have confusion when you try to keep up with corrections at any real distance. Practice should mitigate this, as with anything, but trying to deal with two moving dots on the same moving target at 50 meters is a bastard.

[Miri]

There's a difference between intuitive shooting and watching a dot, much less two dots at once. And there's a big difference between shooting at independent targets and shooting at independent moving targets.

Even on the same target with different colored dots, you're going to have confusion when you try to keep up with corrections at any real distance. Practice should mitigate this, as with anything, but trying to deal with two moving dots on the same moving target at 50 meters is a bastard.

Why are you using a Heavy Pistol at its max effective range of 50m? Use a SMG or Assault Rifle for those ranges.

[Saint Sithney]

Why aren't you dual wielding SMGs?

[Miri]

Why aren't you dual wielding SMGs?

Because I prefer to load EXEX rounds into my SmartGun modded Ares Sliverguns.

[ggodo]

You can EXEX a slivergun?

[Miri]

You can EXEX a slivergun?

Ammo is interchangeable according to the ammo section. The Ares does not specifically state like the Mossberg shotgun does that it can only load flechette ammo.