[X] My Assistant

[Patrick Goodman]

Don't want to get rid of them from the setting. I rather like them in the setting. I don't believe they have a place as playable races, though, and I think the notion of "Infected rights" is ludicrous on the face of it.

I want them to be a part of the setting...and I believe they should be monsters, straight up no chaser. Scary ones.

Now, like I said, some will love me for this and some will despise me. You'll despise me, Sengir, and I'm okay with that. At the end of the day, if someone doesn't hate something I've done, then it probably wasn't worth doing.

[Stalag]

We don't need playable vampires in Shadowrun, in my opinion.

I would say the same for just about all of the "alternative character concepts" in Runner's Companion... about the only one's I'd keep would be the meta-type variations and even those are a bit sketchy in spots.

Now, while you're at - can you speak to whoever wrote up the rules on spirits and have them crank back their power and/or availability about a hundred notches? Spirits are many groups "instant win" button (and sometimes, instant death)

[CanRay]

They're just people. That eat other people. Remember that.

If the Dragon Lotto about making artificial HMHVV-Food had been won, I could see some people trying to have the "Hug A Ghoul" thing going, but it hasn't at all.

They should be like Dragons in my mind, unplayable. When used as NPCs, they should be creepy at best (Like the Vampire PI that Argent dealt with in "Run Hard, Die Fast") all the way to Total Monster that would give Alice Cooper (The character, not the man) nightmares.

Which isn't that bad an idea, a third Nightmare album would ROCK!

[ggodo]

Toss me in the pile of Anti-Infected rights, but I'm also a GM that bans a lot of the alternate character types. Not a fan of how AI and Spirits were handled, and a firm believer that I don't want to have to deal with Vampires and the playability issues they bring up. I mean, What happens when the team meets their first mage? He assenses the vampire and calls for Tons o' backup? That's going to be too much of a hassle for everybody. I'm a little more forgiving on Drakes, mostly because they can pass as human and tend to be a BP sink for little benefit. Plus, I like the idea of getting hunted by dragons for existing. Short of playing a monsters campaign I don't need playable infected. If I were doing a monster campaign you can bet DeVries would feature prominently. Maybe I'm too vindictive on some things, but I'm not allowing much of Runner's Companion.

[CanRay]

If you're running a Monster's Campaign, I call dibs on Wolfman.

[Patrick Goodman]

While you are rewriting stuff you don't like, go ahead and write Ryan Mercury out of the game as well, or is only stuff you don't like that could possibly need to be changed or ignored?

Only stuff that I don't like which bothers me, actually, is stuff that I will try to change. Ryan Mercury doesn't particularly bother me, so even though I don't particularly like him, I'm not going to try and do anything about him.

It's more a question of why it's apparently not ok for someone to ignore the trilogy of novels that provides the 'canon' resolution/cause of D's death at their table, but ok to use a position as a freelancer to change something he dislikes.

It's absolutely okay to ignore them, as I said over in the thread you're referencing on the official forums. Where you and I seem to have some difference is that you insist on ignoring them and saying they never happened, and then insist that you're talking about the canon SR universe. You aren't. As soon as you say that they didn't happen, you're talkling about a parallel universe...and that's perfectly okay, especially at your own table. Just don't try to pass it off as the canon universe. It's not.

And "using a position as a freelancer to change something he dislikes" is actually one of the ways to become a freelancer in the first place, and a not-insignificant reason for wanting to do so. It's sure not the money. But wanting to correct a perceived problem was part of why I got involved in trying to write for SR to begin with, and yes, it's something I'm trying to do now. And I'm not apologizing for it.

One of these weekends, we need to arrange to meet over at Hatter's and try to actually talk this out instead of flinging things on forums. I'm probably not nearly the asshole you think I am.

[CanRay]

Don't like the product? Try to write better product and get it published. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Stalag]

Don't like the product? Try to write better product and get it published. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The former is easier than the latter (though self publishing is getting easier every year)

[Bigity]

Don't like the product? Try to write better product and get it published. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I don't write. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Technical documents/test cases/instructions sure. Coherent sentences otherwise? My three kids give me enough frustration for free I don't need to go looking for more thanks.

[CanRay]

The former is easier than the latter (though self publishing is getting easier every year)

Thus the word "Try" being right in front. But back when fan websites were big rather than forum, that wasn't too hard a thing. Just write up your stuff and put it up on the free space your ISP gave you. Or Geocities. Or where ever else you could get free space. Harder to do now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

I don't write. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Technical documents/test cases/instructions sure. Coherent sentences otherwise? My three kids give me enough frustration for free I don't need to go looking for more thanks.

And there lies the other problem. Not many people are able to write/draw and so on.

I mean, hell, imagine a hack like me trying something professionally?

[Bigity]

Only stuff that I don't like which bothers me, actually, is stuff that I will try to change. Ryan Mercury doesn't particularly bother me, so even though I don't particularly like him, I'm not going to try and do anything about him.


It's absolutely okay to ignore them, as I said over in the thread you're referencing on the official forums. Where you and I seem to have some difference is that you insist on ignoring them and saying they never happened, and then insist that you're talking about the canon SR universe. You aren't. As soon as you say that they didn't happen, you're talkling about a parallel universe...and that's perfectly okay, especially at your own table. Just don't try to pass it off as the canon universe. It's not.

And "using a position as a freelancer to change something he dislikes" is actually one of the ways to become a freelancer in the first place, and a not-insignificant reason for wanting to do so. It's sure not the money. But wanting to correct a perceived problem was part of why I got involved in trying to write for SR to begin with, and yes, it's something I'm trying to do now. And I'm not apologizing for it.

One of these weekends, we need to arrange to meet over at Hatter's and try to actually talk this out instead of flinging things on forums. I'm probably not nearly the asshole you think I am.

There's not like this brooding dislike or anything (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That particular subject happens to be my biggest irritation in SR I guess.

And I happen to disagree that novels represent canon, because there are many instances of it not be, but that's for another thread sometime.

And I'll meet ya at Hatter's anytime, I actually haven't been in there but once since moving. My wife will kill me if I wander out there with a quarter of the crap I wanted after being in there for 20 minutes the first time.

[Gerzel]

Thus the word "Try" being right in front. But back when fan websites were big rather than forum, that wasn't too hard a thing. Just write up your stuff and put it up on the free space your ISP gave you. Or Geocities. Or where ever else you could get free space. Harder to do now. :(And there lies the other problem. Not many people are able to write/draw and so on.

I mean, hell, imagine a hack like me trying something professionally?

Not many? What exactly are you doing on this forum to communicate?

There are three things you must do to become a writer.

1. Write.
2. Write.
3. Write.

[ggodo]

Novels are canon when canon says they're canon, and even then, I will ignore it at my table if I deem it too painful. One big problem with the novels is that they tend to break in-universe rules on occasion, and that's not counting Dirk randomly getting an arm.

[CanRay]

There are three things you must do to become a writer.

1. Write.
2. Write.
3. Write.

*Cough*

Novels are canon when canon says they're canon, and even then, I will ignore it at my table if I deem it too painful. One big problem with the novels is that they tend to break in-universe rules on occasion, and that's not counting Dirk randomly getting an arm.

Maybe they were simflicks like "Dead Air"?

[ggodo]

What a tweest!

[Paul]

For my own preferences I assume if it's written and published it's cannon. However I feel no obligation to cannon, which means at my table if you encounter a Great Dragon you're dead. Period. I don't care what the stats are, I don't care why, I don't care what your counter argument is-it just is. At my table manga and anime based characters are pretty much taboo. At my table you'll never run into an established and published NPC. I just don't like them. And I can do all of this because no one's going to show up at my table, or on my doorstep to tell me how wrong I am. And as long as my players keep showing up-I'm good!

[Sengir]

I don't believe they have a place as playable races, though, and I think the notion of "Infected rights" is ludicrous on the face of it.

Maybe you do, but Infected rights are part and parcel of the setting and writing them out would be like throwing away the bugs. And since the shadows make an ideal harbor for Infected (while conveniently providing feeding opportunities for the HMHVV I variants), it also makes sense to have them as playable races.

I want them to be a part of the setting...and I believe they should be monsters, straight up no chaser. Scary ones.

...because scary paranormal threads are in short supply?

[Patrick Goodman]

Things change, Sengir. People, places, perceptions, legislation. They change. And the shadows being a harbor for the Infected makes it a heck of a lot easier for me to want to get rid of "Infected rights." Now they'll have a place to go and a reason to run the shadows if I can't get rid of PC Infected.

However: The Infected eat people. Giving them rights to eat other people is ludicrous. They're a late addition to the setting (except for ghoul rights, which goes back a ways, but vampire rights is as far back as Runner's Companion, and was as dumb an idea then as it is now, my personal feelings and respect for Bobby and Peter notwithstanding), and they can go away as easily as they were added. It just takes leverage.

I am working on levers in my copious unstructured free time.

I will say it over and over again: You don't have to like it. Your not liking it will in no way affect my attempting to do it. Odds are I will not get everything I want to do in this endeavor, but I'm going to make the most of the changes I do get to make.

[Seriously Mike]

So, the Infected eat people. More exactly, Essence. And Augmentation introduced Essence regaining therapy (involving handwavium). Is it just me, or did someone get carried away inventing this crap to create a potential justification for that one?

[Paul]

That's always the hard part of multiple hands at the rudder. The ship changes course all too often.

[Patrick Goodman]

So, the Infected eat people. More exactly, Essence. And Augmentation introduced Essence regaining therapy (involving handwavium). Is it just me, or did someone get carried away inventing this crap to create a potential justification for that one?

Yeah, I've gotta do something about that, too, now that you mention it. Ah, well, one thing at a time. Maybe it causes cancer, like program carriers did back in the day....

Oh, and not all of them eat Essence. Some of them, most of them, actually subsist on metahuman flesh as well.

That's always the hard part of multiple hands at the rudder. The ship changes course all too often.

You ain't just whistling "Dixie" there....

[Manunancy]

So, the Infected eat people. More exactly, Essence. And Augmentation introduced Essence regaining therapy (involving handwavium). Is it just me, or did someone get carried away inventing this crap to create a potential justification for that one?

Considering the price tag and time constraints of those therapies, only a very marginal fraction of the infected would be able to take advantage of it and say 'see I don't harm anyone with my feeding'. Which means that 99% of them will will be stuck with the 'I kill peoples to feed' tag. Worse, a siginficant fraction of the infected are basically little-to-no-brained maneaters that will never look good on an 'infected rights' poster, not matter how much spin doctoring is applied.

[Patrick Goodman]

Ooooooh, posters! I gotta remember to put posters in some of this stuff....

[CanRay]

Would you want this eating your daughter? Help with the Licensed Ghoul Culling! Register at any City Hall or Post Office!

[Stalag]

What a tweest!

+1 Karma!