My history with CGL, Why I think things are better now Options

[Patrick Goodman]

Way back in the dark days of the CGL/freelancer debacle (and I can think of no better word, I'm afraid, for what went down), there was a whole lot of yapping by a whole lot of people about freelancers getting paid. I wouldn't write for them for a while, and I knew some other freelancers that also held off writing for them. When I mentioned that I had started freelancing for them again, it was after a good bit of discussion with other freelancers and CGL themselves; I didn't re-enter that madhouse willy-nilly.

While the public outcry has long since subsided, I've received several emails and PMs from people since making that decision, asking me, "What the hell are you thinking?! They're just going to screw you again! Have you lost your damn mind?"

So here's a little bit of transparency for some of you people to chew on: I get paid for proofreading, and I get paid for writing. Since my return, I've proofed five products (that I recall; I'd need to double-check my records, but I believe five is correct) and written for one. I have been paid for all five products I've proofed, and while I've not been paid for my writing on Street Legends, that payment is also not contractually due for a few more weeks. I'd love it early, especially my author's copies, but patience has never been my strong suit.

All back payments from the Great Unpleasantness of last year have long since been made good.

Now, this is all connected to me, because I don't know the details of the other freelancers' situations, but the fact is we do talk and no one has, to my recollection, bitched about not getting paid. So what this tells me is that CGL has turned things around fairly successfully. We've put out a great deal of product recently, and I think the quality has been steadily increasing. I think some of the stuff coming down the pipe, my involvement (or lack thereof) notwithstanding, is some pretty good stuff.

So I'm not saying that you have to like what CGL is doing with the line, you don't have to like any of the new products, and you don't have to like the company. But for those of you concerned that they're just going to rip off their freelancers again, I have to say that, from my perspective at the moment, at least...that's not an issue any longer. I sure wouldn't be working on some of the projects I'm preparing to pitch if I thought they were still going to rip me off.

Far as I'm concerned, everything's cool. I don't know that I need shades at the moment, but the future looks bright to me.

[Prime Mover]

Its nice to see some positive info. And love or leave it if your here or the official forums your a fan of Shadowrun and wish it well.

[Cain]

I've proofed two products, and haven't gotten paid. Then again, I kinda refuse to take payment; I agreed to proof out of Love of the Game, not for repayment. That really doesn't bother me.

What is positive is to see that the editors are taking a stronger hand in things, and are more willing to be involved. In my opinion, the past shoddy product was a lack of editorial oversight. I write as well, and a good editor really can bring the best out of good talent.

[Patrick Goodman]

To be fair, I get paid for proofing in store credit, and wasn't really expecting that. When I received it, though, it was a pleasant surprise.

[Method]

Okay, first the preemptive color text:

Please review the terms of service before posting in this thread, specifically the bits about trolling, flaming, thread crapping, etc. Patrick has clearly stated the purpose of this thread and it is not to rehash the whole CGL debacle. Please respect that and keep things moving forward.

Now then...

Patrick: I think its great that you are willing to provide this little window into the current state of things. I myself have some concerns about the current state of the play testing process, but I don't think those are appropriate for this thread or even for public discussion, since I don't have all the relevant facts I'm sure. I will say that I do appreciate your effort to bring some transparency.

And I am actually quite pleased to learn that people like Cain are now involved in proofreading (Cain: is this a recent development?). I've known Cain for a long time and as we all know/love/hate he's not one to let things slide if he finds something that bothers him. I think he's exactly the kind of guy we want in that type of role (proofreading, editing, play testing); not the brainless fanboys you find on some sites, or the disgruntled malcontents you find on others. Someone who, like me, loves the game and wants to see it improve, even if we don't necessarily like the creative direction its going. Other people can draw their own conclusions, but as far as I'm concerned if Cain has good things to say, thats saying something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[CanRay]

Thanks for the heads up, Patrick! Good to hear things are back on track again. I was worried when I came back to DumpShock and heard all the misery that was going on.

As for Brainless Fanboy... Was that directed at me? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Method]

Not directed at anyone in particular, CanRay.

I just think that after the Late Unpleasantness SR's online community kind of segregated itself and Dumpshock wound up in the middle of a spectrum. I happen to think its a good place to be.

Of course, I'm totally biased... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[CanRay]

Thus the smiley, Method. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) 'Sall good, just poking fun at myself actually.

Wait a minute, DumpShock is the middle of the spectrum? I'd hate the see the dark side of it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Bull]

Method: Just a note, consider doing a quick edit to your first post. Patrick has a a... quirk... in that he really, really hates his name being shortened.

And, while I'll echo everything Patrick said, I'm also widely considered a corp shill (Not without some merit, I'll admit), so... *shrug*

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bull

[Blade]

@CanRay: Look for The Gaming Den if you want to see the dark side. It's mostly about (hating) D&D and praising the creations or ideas of a few forum members, but there's also some (hate of) SR4 over there.

[Cain]

And I am actually quite pleased to learn that people like Cain are now involved in proofreading (Cain: is this a recent development?). I've known Cain for a long time and as we all know/love/hate he's not one to let things slide if he finds something that bothers him. I think he's exactly the kind of guy we want in that type of role (proofreading, editing, play testing); not the brainless fanboys you find on some sites, or the disgruntled malcontents you find on others. Someone who, like me, loves the game and wants to see it improve, even if we don't necessarily like the creative direction its going. Other people can draw their own conclusions, but as far as I'm concerned if Cain has good things to say, thats saying something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Several months old, now. I actually have the literary power to do proofing (was an English major in college) and I do believe in the power of a good editor. The editors have been more than willing to accept even slightly more than significant changes the proofers have suggested, we're slightly more than breathing grammar checkers. I don't receive pay or credit because I refuse to; I threw down a gauntlet and pride (plus obsessive privacy concerns) mean I'll do it because I want to, not because I get rewarded.

To be fair, I probably do have store credit somewhere (as Patrick commented, the proofreaders get paid in store credit) but I honestly don't know how to access it.

[Method]

Method: Just a note, consider doing a quick edit to your first post. Patrick has a a... quirk... in that he really, really hates his name being shortened.

Doah! Fixed.

I knew that too and was consciously aware of it the first time I used his name in my post. Sorry Patrick.

[ravensmuse]

I just want to say that I know that I've been one of the more vocal critics of CGL this last year and I know that people are probably sick of me going on about it.

I've always said that my issue has been with management and never the creative folks, because really, where was their fault in this? But Patrick being very transparent about this - Critias being one of the most patient folks on this board - Cain of all people being a proofer (dude, I've watched you go toe to toe, multi-page, with Synner; that's the kind of passion I want to see in a proofer!) and have had quite a few good chats with David Hill, it's starting to make me feel a little bit better about the company.

Don't think I need to mention that Bull has always been good people, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I still wish something could be done regarding the management, but that's not really a discussion for this topic, I think.

Thanks for being open and honest with us Patrick and Cain. Let's try to build Dumpshock back up, y'know?

[Shortstraw]

This good stuff coming down the pipe - not asking for specifics but are we talking fluff, crunch or the whole salad?

[Jhaiisiin]

Yes

[Paul]

Sigh. I'm sure someone will take this the wrong way-but this is honestly my personal opinion, and we all know what the old ditty about opinions is right?

I've played Shadowrun since shortly after it was introduced in 89. I love the game, and for the most part my interactions with the people writing the game material has been positive. (We all have people we like and get along with, and we all have people we don't like or don't get along with right? And since I don't have to have people I don't like at my table, I try to take the view that I can agree to disagree; because as I've said elsewhere it's not like the Gaming Police are showing up at my door step when I botch a rule, or use a concept that isn't canon.) I've played nearly continuously since 89. (Some short breaks due to various real life concerns, as I'm sure we can all relate to.) I've run a biweekly game with a core group of players, who've stuck with me these 20 some odd years. (Some new people added here, some old people dropped there-but a few people have always been there.)

Now my views about the content of the game aside-because ask 50 posters what they want from Shadowrun, or any RPG, and you'll get 65 answers, a kick to the face and venomous duck for your troubles-I have been pretty sad at how poorly it seems to me, as a outsider looking in, the Company producing my game has been. Some of this is the various pay issues I've seen over the years, and have refrained from commenting on; some of it's their choices in how the game is marketed; some of it is their choices in who writes, edits and produces the game. (They may be great people, but we just happen to have differing visions-this is not me vilifying them, or saying their bad people, rather just a simple expression that not everyone is going to approach it the same way I'd like. And that's okay because I get I'm not the only paying customer out there.) And finally some of it it has been how they've approached their on line presence, which for a game that heavily involves an online presence in it's setting and actual game play-I mean it was the inspiration for several movies that made lot's of money-has been lackluster and scattered at best.

I hope the good people at Shadowrun get it together, and continue to publish product. I hope for quality product that I'll be interested in, and that will keep the Game World a vivid, and exciting place to spend my hobby time on. (And hard earned dollars.) I'll support their efforts, and hope that maybe they can build a culture that not only lasts but doesn't end up with a half dozen or so free lancer's venting on Dumpshock every few years about what sort of professional problems they've encountered. We'll see.

[Critias]

Just for the record, but my eyes were wide open when I decided to write a few things for SR, myself. I came in on the tail end of the Great Debacle ™, personally, I wasn't even on the roller coaster for the whole ride, I just showed up in the horrible aftermath. I knew their reputation had taken a hit, but I also had a flexible enough schedule (for the first time in my life) that I had a chance to write for Shadowrun, my first RPG. I weighed the benefit to the risk, decided the worst that could happen was I'd write stuff (once), not get paid (once), and get my name in a Shadowrun book (once), and I went for it.

My rule, the entire time, has been "I'll give 'em a shot until they screw me over."

So far, so good. I've gotten to publish some stuff that I think has been pretty fun, I've gotten to add some fiction in a few places, I've gotten to wedge a couple popular fiction characters of mine into canon, and the response to my contributions has been fairly positive. What's more, I've gotten paid on time, I got my comps without hassle, and -- if anything -- CGL's been more careful/anal/meticulous about contracts and other business-side paperwork than previous companies I've freelanced for (one of which is a pretty big name).

The working arrangement ain't perfect, I've butted heads a few times (because that's what writers do with editors, it's just the natural cycle), etc, etc...but if it was that awesome, it wouldn't count as a job.

I've seen nothing from my own admittedly brief time with CGL that makes me question my next paycheck arriving on time.

[CanRay]

@CanRay: Look for The Gaming Den if you want to see the dark side. It's mostly about (hating) D&D and praising the creations or ideas of a few forum members, but there's also some (hate of) SR4 over there.

I've seen enough dark side in the mirror every morning... Thanks.

I still wish something could be done regarding the management, but that's not really a discussion for this topic, I think.

Hostile Extractions and Placements? This is Shadowrun we're talking about here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Bull]

Several months old, now. I actually have the literary power to do proofing (was an English major in college) and I do believe in the power of a good editor. The editors have been more than willing to accept even slightly more than significant changes the proofers have suggested, we're slightly more than breathing grammar checkers. I don't receive pay or credit because I refuse to; I threw down a gauntlet and pride (plus obsessive privacy concerns) mean I'll do it because I want to, not because I get rewarded.

To be fair, I probably do have store credit somewhere (as Patrick commented, the proofreaders get paid in store credit) but I honestly don't know how to access it.

I just got a couple emails with some backlog proofing credits and instructions in how to use them, so I imagine you'll probably be getting something similar soon, if you haven't already. Check your spam filters, just in case,

(And I was very surprised to get them, since I was helping out to, you know, help out, and hadn't asked for any kind of credit, so... Hey, cool (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

[Bull]

This good stuff coming down the pipe - not asking for specifics but are we talking fluff, crunch or the whole salad?

I think I can say this without getting yelled at... I hope.

Artifacts Unbound should be hitting PDF very soon (Jason noted on Facebook that it was sent to the printers and that the PDF was approaching the launch bay yesterday). It contains a LOT of fiction and fluff, but it also contains a bunch of crunch (A lot of NPC stats, but also a few rules), and more story and adventure seeds and hooks than you can shake a stick at.

There's some really, really cool stuff in there, IMO. Plus the stuff I wrote, but it's short, you can ignore that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bull

[CanRay]

Yeah, but does it have the stuff we're asking for on The Other Forum? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[SecGuard]

Hi Patrick, thanks for the update, its good to hear that things seem to have settled down and you are now getting paid.

[Bull]

Yeah, but does it have the stuff we're asking for on The Other Forum? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Ummm. I think we're saving that for a web supplement (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

<grin>

(BTW, when I said "Available Soon"? Yeah. I meant within a couple hours. It's up. Enjoy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

Bull

[Grinder]

It's just full of adventure hooks, npcs, and similar random stuff? Hmmm...

[3278]

I myself have some concerns about the current state of the play testing process, but I don't think those are appropriate for this thread or even for public discussion, since I don't have all the relevant facts I'm sure.

Don't get me started. The state of playtesting for Shadowrun is deplorable, from everything I've seen.

I've known Cain for a long time and as we all know/love/hate he's not one to let things slide if he finds something that bothers him.

Really? I hadn't noticed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) [Hey, buddy!]