[X] My Assistant

[Loch]

So why is it that there are so many more traditions for Logic and Charisma than there are for Intuition? What does it mean that Buddhism is Intuition-linked but Hindu is Logic-linked and Christianity is Charisma-linked?

Am I crazy? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Paul]

Don't they present rules for designing your own tradition?

[KarmaInferno]

I don't know why there's fewer Intuition-linked Traditions, but they all mean that when resisting Drain from spellcasting or summoning or whatever, they use their Willpower attribute plus their "linked" attribute as their base dice pool.

So someone with Willpower 4 and Charisma 4 and a Charisma-linked Tradition has a base dice pool of 8 to resist Drain.



-k

[Loch]

I'm aware of how attributes help to resist drain; my question is more fluff-related. What exactly is the difference, idealogically, mentally, whatever-ly, between a Logic-using Mage and a Charisma-using mage. Why are certain attributes linked to certain belief systems?

[Paul]

Well since SR1 Shaman'shave been linked to Charisma, I think because the tradition is commonly perceived (Correctly or not) as being one where social interactions between man and nature are more important than the ritualistic portions of the tradition.

I assume since the days of D&D Mages have been perceived as being the prototypical Gandalf/Archmage type. Books, and more concerned about the power than a congenial relationship with nature. (Obviously this is a super huge simplification.)

[Loch]

So what about an intuition-based tradition? Magic is linked to the strength of your belief? Magical ability derived not from exchanges with others, nor book learnin', but inherent power of the individual?

[Paul]

Design one, and post it up and I'm sure you'll have no shortage of knuckleheads...I mean well meaning posters offering commentary...whether you want it or not!

[UmaroVI]

Where the dart landed on the dartboard? I'm not a big fan of the magical traditions as presented, most of them are a randomly selected attribute, some often odd spirit choices, and research that suggests someone skimmed the wikipedia article.

[Critias]

There's nothing stopping you from swapping out Drain stats, if your GM allows it and your character makes sense. Want to play a Shamanic magician that handles things through gut instinct better than he does through pure force of personality? Sure, pop in Intuition instead of Charisma, if you want. Want to play a ruthless, manipulative, Black Mage who actually bullies spirits into working for him and bends physics with his forceful personality, instead of manipulating reality through cold logic? Some GMs would let you trade in Cha instead of Logic for your Drain stat.

Etc, etc. Make it make sense, don't do so just to abuse the system with some jinky little loophole (and a stat you can pump up silly high), and I imagine most GMs would let you do so, if you wanted.

So many of the assigned Drain stats really do seem to be "where the dart hit" as much as anything else, I don't think the game world will break down if you swap in one mental attribute for another.

[Ol' Scratch]

The simple answer is because Intuition is a major attribute, while Logic and to a much lesser degree Charisma aren't. Intuition is used for Perception Tests and determining Initiative, it gives you bonus Knowledge Skill points, and it's used to resist many Illusion spells. These are things every character benefits from, and that's just off the top of my head. Sure, Charisma is nice for social types, of course, but that's a mere niche compared to everything Intuition does for you. Logic is even more niche and neglected, to the point where it should be more valuable than it is, but isn't because of idiotic design choices (particularly in the way of hacking).

But, yeah, it really is that simple; they didn't want to inflate the value of Intuition more than it already is.

Fluff wise there's absolutely no reason for there to be so many traditions that lack Intuition as their linked attribute. It deals with insight, contemplation, and inspiration; traits valued in many religious and magical philosophies. Luckily, since all the traditions in the game are simply examples, you're free to modify them or come up with one from scratch so it's really not that big of an issue.

[Stalag]

I'm aware of how attributes help to resist drain; my question is more fluff-related. What exactly is the difference, idealogically, mentally, whatever-ly, between a Logic-using Mage and a Charisma-using mage. Why are certain attributes linked to certain belief systems?

Maybe they were making a commentary about what they thought about various world religions?

• If it's Logic based they're saying your religion is is based on critical thinking and some sort of systematic approach (don't worry about what you feel - believe because 1+1 = 2)
• If it's Charisma based they're saying your religion is based on influential people who determine the tenets and convince others to follow (believe because I tell you to and I'm pretty convincing)
• If it's Intuition based then they're saying your religion is based on guess-work and what "feel's right" (lets just make this shit up as we go)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

What people have said matches my understanding: Intuition is already good enough for *all* characters, and it used to be Charisma-Shamans and Logic-Mages.

[Stalag]

Luckily, since all the traditions in the game are simply examples

I'm all for being able to build your own traditions but I think they should mean something as opposed to just being a fluff "set of beliefs" that your character isn't likely to follow anyway.

Of course I also believe spells (and summoning abilities) should have some sort of pre-requisites... seems kind of silly that any entry level mage of any tradition should be able to learn something as powerful as Mob Mind... hell it's only 8R, not even that hard to get your hands on.

[Makki]

there are 3 more Intuition traditions in Digital Grimoire.

Spock: It has changed course before to mislead us, Captain. Logic would dictate...
Capt. Kirk: [interrupting] No, I'm playing intuition.

[ggodo]

Of course I also believe spells (and summoning abilities) should have some sort of pre-requisites... seems kind of silly that any entry level mage of any tradition should be able to learn something as powerful as Mob Mind... hell it's only 8R, not even that hard to get your hands on.

Yeah, that's definitely F in my world. I find it really hard to believe that they would allow any of the Mental spells at all.

[TheOOB]

It's kind of a causality of how the magic traditions are made.

As a general rule, logic traditions are those who rely on intense study and exacting rituals, charisma traditions are those that focus on the interaction between the magicians and the spirits, and intuition traditions are those that focus on personal power and enlightenment.

Traditions are mostly based off of old real world religions, and in order for a tradition to work it needs not only to explain how magic works, but also what the spirits are. Most old world traditions that have the type of spirits that make sense for shadowrun are strongly tied to said spirits, and are fairly shamanistic by modern standards, hence charisma.

There actually are not a lot of logic based traditions, but it happens that one of them is perhaps the most common western tradition, based on the real world order of hermes.

The problem arises that most real world traditions that focus on personal power and enlightenment are more philosophy than religion, and usually don't care a great deal about spirits and magic and what not, and thus are hard to fit into the shadowrun rules system, thus there are not many intuition based traditions.

[UmaroVI]

The simple answer is because Intuition is a major attribute, while Logic and to a much lesser degree Charisma aren't. Intuition is used for Perception Tests and determining Initiative, it gives you bonus Knowledge Skill points, and it's used to resist many Illusion spells. These are things every character benefits from, and that's just off the top of my head. Sure, Charisma is nice for social types, of course, but that's a mere niche compared to everything Intuition does for you. Logic is even more niche and neglected, to the point where it should be more valuable than it is, but isn't because of idiotic design choices (particularly in the way of hacking).

You'd almost think so, but that's totally inconsistent. Intuition materialization traditions universally have weak spirit selections... but Intuition possession traditions don't. And there's plenty of logic and charisma traditions with weak spirit selections too (ex: Wicca has a Logic branch and an Intuition branch). Not that I buy that whoever wrote Street Magic had the faintest clue about which spirit types were better than others.

Skim wikipedia article, type some stuff, randomly select drain attribute, randomly select 5 spirit types explains the traditions better than anything else, although a few of them appear to have been edited afterwards.

[Ol' Scratch]

I'm all for being able to build your own traditions but I think they should mean something as opposed to just being a fluff "set of beliefs" that your character isn't likely to follow anyway.

That's not what I said. I said they're examples of traditions, not that traditions themselves should be ignored. Black Magic, for example, is really just a darker variation of Hermetic Magic. The existence of Black Magic does not, however, negate Hermetic Magic, nor does it render Hermetic Magicians "fluff." It's simply a different viewpoint with different beliefs and capabilities.

Of course I also believe spells (and summoning abilities) should have some sort of pre-requisites... seems kind of silly that any entry level mage of any tradition should be able to learn something as powerful as Mob Mind... hell it's only 8R, not even that hard to get your hands on.

A house rule that often came up in the past was that you had to take the "lesser" versions of spells first. Stunbolt to get Stunball, Influence to get Control Thoughts, Control Thoughts to get Mob Mind, and so on and so forth.

[Fortinbras]

I'm a big proponent of making your own traditions. It's in the books for a reason. Tabletop RPGs and their GM's should encourage creative thinking way more than encyclopedic knowledge and book ownership. In this case, Shadowrun does.

I've always wanted to play a Scientology mage. An OT-8 who really CAN do all the cool magical stuff LRH claimed he could do. What do you think; Charisma based?

[Yerameyahu]

How did spirit selection get involved in this? We all know those are totally random. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Seriously Mike]

I've always wanted to play a Scientology mage. An OT-8 who really CAN do all the cool magical stuff LRH claimed he could do. What do you think; Charisma based?

Heh, that's a tricky one. I'd say Charisma. Oh, and watch out for the litigators.

[Ascalaphus]

There actually are not a lot of logic based traditions, but it happens that one of them is perhaps the most common western tradition, based on the real world order of hermes.

There's a real-world Order of Hermes?

I'd explain the current division as some developer thinking "well, Drain will be Willpower and some mental attribute... " and then having some legacy traditions with Charisma and Logic from past editions. And then divvying up the remaining traditions based on what feels right.

I'm also not so convinced Intuition traditions are all that sweet; Elves get a juicy Charisma bonus, and Logic traditions can benefit from Cerebral Booster bioware. I don't see a clear winner, there's something to be said for each of the three.

[Fortinbras]

I'm also not so convinced Intuition traditions are all that sweet; Elves get a juicy Charisma bonus, and Logic traditions can benefit from Cerebral Booster bioware. I don't see a clear winner, there's something to be said for each of the three.

You get to be an ork and troll without a reduction to your Drain value stat. The increased Body makes it worth it to some.

[Stalag]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

As a general rule, logic traditions are those who rely on intense study and exacting rituals, charisma traditions are those that focus on the interaction between the magicians and the spirits, and intuition traditions are those that focus on personal power and enlightenment.

My version was funnier (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Stalag]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

As a general rule, logic traditions are those who rely on intense study and exacting rituals, charisma traditions are those that focus on the interaction between the magicians and the spirits, and intuition traditions are those that focus on personal power and enlightenment.

My version was funnier (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)