[X] My Assistant

[Stalag]

That's not what I said. I said they're examples of traditions, not that traditions themselves should be ignored.

Which isn't what I said - all I was saying was that I'd like them to have some actual meaning to the game. I didn't say they should just be ignored because they don't have more of a mechanical impact. If you want to take the Buddhist tradition at my table you need to play your character as a Buddhist

Black Magic, for example, is really just a darker variation of Hermetic Magic. The existence of Black Magic does not, however, negate Hermetic Magic, nor does it render Hermetic Magicians "fluff." It's simply a different viewpoint with different beliefs and capabilities.

Well, technically, without more mechanics around them they're all mostly "fluff" but I would never say that one tradition negates the existence of another. I see Hermetic as an almost scientific approach to magic that has little or no religious connotations (I cast Manabolt... for SCIENCE!). I see Chaos as a darker and edgier version of Hermetic and I see Black Magic as a darker more spirit based version of Chaos (though that's just my personal view and is not really supported by RAW - fluff or otherwise)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm all for being able to build your own traditions but I think they should mean something as opposed to just being a fluff "set of beliefs" that your character isn't likely to follow anyway.

Of course I also believe spells (and summoning abilities) should have some sort of pre-requisites... seems kind of silly that any entry level mage of any tradition should be able to learn something as powerful as Mob Mind... hell it's only 8R, not even that hard to get your hands on.

If the character is not following the beliefs of their Tradition, they should suffer a Crisis of Faith/Confidence (Optional Rule: Acquiring Geasa in Play, Page 29, Street Magic, Applied because the Magician refuses to follow the tenets of his Tradition), with the resolution of such requiring a Geas. It is the Simplest way to correct the errant magician. My question is why a player would select a Tradition that they did not intend to follow in the first place. I would never allow that.

Spells and Summoning abilities DO have a set of prerequisites. They are called a Tradition. And a Magical Attribute. If the Player's character chooses not to follow the Tradition and its philosophies, their character's should be punished for it. Crisis of Faith/Confidence is the perfect resolution. One that can have a permanent, and deliterious, effect on the magician.

See the Geas Negative Quality (Street Magic) for the effects of Broken Geasa.

[Yerameyahu]

I see them all as total meaningless fluff.

[Stalag]

If the character is not following the beliefs of their Tradition, they should suffer a Crisis of Faith/Confidence (Optional Rule: Acquiring Geasa in Play, Page 29, Street Magic, Applied because the Magician refuses to follow the tenets of his Tradition), with the resolution of such requiring a Geas.

Well that doesn't follow their recommendation for when a Geas would be gained during play but since it's established you and I generally read things differently and I don't disagree that a penalty should be imposed so I won't argue the point.

It is the Simplest way to correct the errant magician.

Not quite as simple as treating the Traditions themselves as pre-existing Geas for all casters. Doing something not in line with your tradition.. -1 to Magic until you stop and, possibly, atone (depending on the tradition). (not that -1 Magic is, by itself, that devastating). Of course this leads to big debates about when a particular action is or isn't following a particular tradition. Would a mage of the Christian tradition not be allowed to kill an opponent? It violates one of the 10 commandments... but if you look at Christian history it's full of Christians killing people "in the name of God"

And even if those answers were clear, how much does your average player know about most of the listed traditions beyond what's in SM? The player or GM would have to learn enough about the RL equivalent of the tradition (or just make up if crafting a custom one) to create a set of tenets the character shouldn't violate.

My question is why a player would select a Tradition that they did not intend to follow in the first place. I would never allow that.

Which is what I also say a few comments farther down the thread

Spells and Summoning abilities DO have a set of prerequisites. They are called a Tradition. And a Magical Attribute.

Very nit-picky and obviously not what I meant at all. I don't disagree with imposing a tradition based penalty but I still find spell and spirit accessibility a bit too "open ended" for my tastes. (skills and warez too for that matter)

[Paul]

I kind of dislike the ideas of Traditions. One of the things that originally attracted me to SR1 was the idea that Magic wasn't bound by musty books, or storied traditions. I get we need to have some rules that govern Magic, but...I don't know. Sometimes when we flesh things out we lose the mystery of it, which can suck sometimes. That said it can also be fun! (I know what kind of frickin' help am I? Right?)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well that doesn't follow their recommendation for when a Geas would be gained during play but since it's established you and I generally read things differently and I don't disagree that a penalty should be imposed so I won't argue the point.

You're right, it doesn't. But it is something that I would apply, and I would use those rules to do so. It is purely an extrapolation of the rule, applied to a Break of Tradition. Sorry if that was not clear. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Not quite as simple as treating the Traditions themselves as pre-existing Geas for all casters. Doing something not in line with your tradition.. -1 to Magic until you stop and, possibly, atone (depending on the tradition). (not that -1 Magic is, by itself, that devastating). Of course this leads to big debates about when a particular action is or isn't following a particular tradition. Would a mage of the Christian tradition not be allowed to kill an opponent? It violates one of the 10 commandments... but if you look at Christian history it's full of Christians killing people "in the name of God"

Sure, That would work as well. But since the Traditions are not currently set up that way, my previous suggestion would work. If you wanted to go to the effort to update all the Traditions with hard code limits, well, that works to.

And even if those answers were clear, how much does your average player know about most of the listed traditions beyond what's in SM? The player or GM would have to learn enough about the RL equivalent of the tradition (or just make up if crafting a custom one) to create a set of tenets the character shouldn't violate.

Sure. I make it a point to do the research on any tradition that I choose to play. My GM trusts me to roleplay the Tradition. However, My GM is also intuitive enough to know when a Tradition is not being followed (for example, the Buddhist PRIEST that casually kills; Pretty blatant break from the Tradition, no research even required). If there are questions, I provide the research (Not just a Wiki Entry) to back up my roleplaying, if necessary. This has not been required of me yet. *Shrug*

Very nit-picky and obviously not what I meant at all. I don't disagree with imposing a tradition based penalty but I still find spell and spirit accessibility a bit too "open ended" for my tastes. (skills and warez too for that matter)

I think that the design process should be shared between the Player and the GM, and any bugs ironed out before play starts. That tends to prevent any issues from cropping up later. As for the nit-picky, I apologize. Should there be other prerequisites? Sure. But those should be part and parcel of the Tradition, as designed.

Hope I made a bit more sense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[TheOOB]

There's a real-world Order of Hermes?

Hermeticism has been around for quite some time, and the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn was perhaps the most well known order that practiced it. The Hermetic mages in Shadowrun are based on those beliefs, but with the Abrahamic undertones muted. Chaos magic is basically hermetic magic with none of the religious stuff, and black magic takes the old testament flair of Hermetic magic up to 11, drawing power from dark spirits and demons instead of the angels and whatnot.

Honestly, I see no reason that an Intuition tradition should be any more or less powerful than a logic or charisma based one. Intuition is one of the more important combat stats, and is used for assensing, but otherwise isn't magically useful. Logic affects bound foci and is the only attribute boostable by 'ware, and charisma affects bound spirit limits.

My general rule when creating traditions is I try to have at least two of the elemental spirits, because honestly, spirits of man and beast, as well as the street magic spirits out class the elemental spirits by quite a bit.

[Ascalaphus]

Ah, right, the Golden Dawn and such. Because AFAIK, the "Order of Hermes" exists only in Ars Magica and White Wolf (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah, I think Intuition, Charisma and Logic are all valid choices. Each has its own advantages, none outclass the other two completely. Charisma lets you be a Face. Logic is easiest to boost really high, and if you use the popular Attribute+Skill for hacking optional rule, it lets you do a Mage/Face quite nicely. And Intuition is good in combat and perception. So they all have something nice to them. I think it's a bit of game design gone well (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[pbangarth]

Just tossing this out there... has anybody considered a Tradition with drain stats being WIL + WIL? Focusing on mental discipline, rather than acuity, insight or personality.

[UmaroVI]

Honestly, I see no reason that an Intuition tradition should be any more or less powerful than a logic or charisma based one. Intuition is one of the more important combat stats, and is used for assensing, but otherwise isn't magically useful. Logic affects bound foci and is the only attribute boostable by 'ware, and charisma affects bound spirit limits.

My general rule when creating traditions is I try to have at least two of the elemental spirits, because honestly, spirits of man and beast, as well as the street magic spirits out class the elemental spirits by quite a bit.

I agree with you on the drain stats, actually. Also, note Elves get +2 Charisma, but nobody gets an Intuition bonus.

I disagree about spirits. Man spirits are super awesome, Air are only slightly less awesome, Fire is at least good at killing people. Water is only good for weather control, and Earth is shit. Beast is also total shit though, they aren't useful for anything and they certainly don't outclass Air spirits.

Plant spirits are kinda niche and are not really better than air or fire spirits, just different. Guidance spirits are also kinda niche, albeit a very useful niche, but that really puts them more on par with Water. Task and Guardian are both really awesome though.

[Ascalaphus]

Just tossing this out there... has anybody considered a Tradition with drain stats being WIL + WIL? Focusing on mental discipline, rather than acuity, insight or personality.

Seems a bit easy, don't you think? Only one Drain Attribute you need to spend points on?

[Zaranthan]

Just tossing this out there... has anybody considered a Tradition with drain stats being WIL + WIL? Focusing on mental discipline, rather than acuity, insight or personality.

Half price drain dice? Yes please! Fluff-wise, that's just a Logic tradition in my world.

[Ascalaphus]

I think basically all magic demands mental discipline, that's why they all have Will.

[pbangarth]

Yeah, I see the cost issue, just thought someone might have found a way to work it fairly.

[TheOOB]

Just tossing this out there... has anybody considered a Tradition with drain stats being WIL + WIL? Focusing on mental discipline, rather than acuity, insight or personality.

There's no good way to balance that. One of the balancing factors of magicians is how expensive it is to be good at magic, and by doing that you are saving 20+ BP. Besides, Willpower is a really good attribute, I don't think we need more reason to encourage people to buy it.

[TheOOB]

I agree with you on the drain stats, actually. Also, note Elves get +2 Charisma, but nobody gets an Intuition bonus.

I disagree about spirits. Man spirits are super awesome, Air are only slightly less awesome, Fire is at least good at killing people. Water is only good for weather control, and Earth is shit. Beast is also total shit though, they aren't useful for anything and they certainly don't outclass Air spirits.

Plant spirits are kinda niche and are not really better than air or fire spirits, just different. Guidance spirits are also kinda niche, albeit a very useful niche, but that really puts them more on par with Water. Task and Guardian are both really awesome though.

My biggest problem with the elemental spirits is how much overlap they have in powers(in particular, water spirits are like crappy air spirits for the most part). Beast spirits can be monsters in combat(natural weapon+venom), and having access to the animal control power is a real nice bonus. Plant spirits honestly feel like earth spirits done right, and guidance, guardian, task, and man spirits are all amazing(thought I'll admit that guidance spirits are kinda niche.)

[Udoshi]

My biggest problem with the elemental spirits

The biggest annoyance I have is that the Street Magic spirits are just basically so much better/more versatile than others.

What I'd really like to see is the core book traditions redone to take into account some of the street magic powers. You know, having at last -ONE- spirit with magical guard, or something, right?

[UmaroVI]

Beast spirits can be monsters in combat(natural weapon+venom)

Uh, what? Beast spirits are terrible at fighting and Venom is pathetic. Fire and Air spirits can both rock a beast spirit's socks off in a melee fight.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The biggest annoyance I have is that the Street Magic spirits are just basically so much better/more versatile than others.

What I'd really like to see is the core book traditions redone to take into account some of the street magic powers. You know, having at last -ONE- spirit with magical guard, or something, right?

Just give all core book Spirits Counterspelling/Magical Guard. Done.

[TheOOB]

Just give all core book Spirits Counterspelling/Magical Guard. Done.

I'd give magical guard to Earth, Water, and Beast Spirits, I don't think the others need it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'd give magical guard to Earth, Water, and Beast Spirits, I don't think the others need it.

That works, but I would provide some parity. Maybe the others (Air and Man) get it as an Optional Power. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[TheOOB]

That works, but I would provide some parity. Maybe the others (Air and Man) get it as an Optional Power. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I personally think that Air and Man spirits don't need the boost, but I don't think it would make them over powered either. I think making magical guard a more common power will help in making magical security easier.

[Udoshi]

That works, but I would provide some parity. Maybe the others (Air and Man) get it as an Optional Power. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This seems entirely reasonable - I wasn't sure who would get what by default, and which could choose to take it.

[ElFenrir]

Street Magic has some Intuition based.

The Buddhist Tradition
The Druidic Tradition(I think i'm using this idea for my Elf-shifting bear shifter, since I can see it fitting him)
Traditional/Hedge Witchcraft
Wiccan(If it's Goddess Wiccan, Gardnerian Wiccan uses Logic)

That's only four out of the bunch, but it's a few to start with at the very least for some ideas. I'm sure you could also create some of your own, it's pretty open ended. But yeah, it's likely due to the fact, if I had to guess, that Charisma and Logic don't work quite as hard; but I too was happy to see a few Intuition based traditions, since I like the general idea of them.

[Stalag]

Street Magic has some Intuition based.

The Buddhist Tradition
The Druidic Tradition(I think i'm using this idea for my Elf-shifting bear shifter, since I can see it fitting him)
Traditional/Hedge Witchcraft
Wiccan(If it's Goddess Wiccan, Gardnerian Wiccan uses Logic)

That's only four out of the bunch, but it's a few to start with at the very least for some ideas. I'm sure you could also create some of your own, it's pretty open ended. But yeah, it's likely due to the fact, if I had to guess, that Charisma and Logic don't work quite as hard; but I too was happy to see a few Intuition based traditions, since I like the general idea of them.

But then you should be asking yourself... do you want the Intuition based tradition because you want to make a character that follows a tradition in the Intuition style or is it really just an excuse to save some points by pumping up a stat you'll already be raising for perception and Initiative anyway?