[X] My Assistant

[Loch]

But then you should be asking yourself... do you want the Intuition based tradition because you want to make a character that follows a tradition in the Intuition style or is it really just an excuse to save some points by pumping up a stat you'll already be raising for perception and Initiative anyway?

The same goes for other traditions, however. Are you playing a Voodoo houngan because you want to make a character that actually believes in the loas, or are you doing it for Possession and the bitchin' spirit spread? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Ol' Scratch]

The same goes for other traditions, however. Are you playing a Voodoo houngan because you want to make a character that actually believes in the loas, or are you doing it for Possession and the bitchin' spirit spread? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Those reasons are actually related to the magic tradition, though. The thing with Intuition-linked traditions is that they save points for any character who takes them, while the others only save points for very niche characters, like mage/faces or mage/hackers (who don't really use Logic, but you get my drift). Every character type benefits from a high Intuition, which is used for very important things within the game. Logic, not so much.

[TheOOB]

Those reasons are actually related to the magic tradition, though. The thing with Intuition-linked traditions is that they save points for any character who takes them, while the others only save points for very niche characters, like mage/faces or mage/hackers (who don't really use Logic, but you get my drift). Every character type benefits from a high Intuition, which is used for very important things within the game. Logic, not so much.

Except charisma is an extremely useful mage attribute (max bound spirits), and logic has use(max bound foci if I recall correctly). Intuition does not directly effect your magical ability at all(save for assessing). It's not niche for a magician to want a high logic or charisma.

I think the only problem with traditions, aside from the BBB spirits being weaker than the SM ones, is that there are too many charisma based traditions. The definition for what a charisma tradition is is overly broad, and even with that some traditions are listed as charisma which shouldn't be(for example Christian Theurgy would make sense as either a logic, Golden Dawn style tradition, or an Intuition more spiritual tradition. Christian magic pays homage to the angels, but it is not granted through direct interaction like say Shamanism or Shinto.)

[phlapjack77]

Except charisma is an extremely useful mage attribute (max bound spirits), and logic has use(max bound foci if I recall correctly). Intuition does not directly effect your magical ability at all(save for assessing). It's not niche for a magician to want a high logic or charisma.

Arguing what is or isn't the best is always an opinion war. So..

I'd say Charisma is not so useful a mage attribute. How often does a PC hit the max bound spirit limit? Are characters really walking around with 3+ bound spirits? Same for Logic - how many foci is the mage binding? I'm positive someone will say it happened in their game, but on the whole, how often? I don't think very often.

Intuition has the link up with some of the prime shadowrunning skills, like Perception, Shadowing / Tracking, and Assensing. And the big one, Initiative.

If only there were a magical tradition that was Will + Agility...

[ElFenrir]

But then you should be asking yourself... do you want the Intuition based tradition because you want to make a character that follows a tradition in the Intuition style or is it really just an excuse to save some points by pumping up a stat you'll already be raising for perception and Initiative anyway?

Well, I can't speak for others, but for me personally, my druid tradition character has equal points in both Intuition and Charisma anyway. I just liked the flavor of Druid.

[Ol' Scratch]

Except charisma is an extremely useful mage attribute (max bound spirits), and logic has use(max bound foci if I recall correctly). Intuition does not directly effect your magical ability at all(save for assessing). It's not niche for a magician to want a high logic or charisma.

I just have to say, it always boggles me when people offer weird ass logic like this. "Logic is clearly important for a magician because it determines the max number of foci they can bind, which rarely if ever comes up. But, on the other hand, Intuition is utterly USELESS for a magician! Sure, it helps out with Assensing, which many magicians use on a regular basis, but no, that still makes it useless compared to the awe-inspiring power of a limit to the maximum number of foci you can bind with!"

Absolutely boggling.

[TheOOB]

I just have to say, it always boggles me when people offer weird ass logic like this. "Logic is clearly important for a magician because it determines the max number of foci they can bind, which rarely if ever comes up. But, on the other hand, Intuition is utterly USELESS for a magician! Sure, it helps out with Assensing, which many magicians use on a regular basis, but no, that still makes it useless compared to the awe-inspiring power of a limit to the maximum number of foci you can bind with!"

Absolutely boggling.

And it always boggles me when someone uses a strawman argument to ignore what I said. I said that both logic and and charisma directly increase your magical ability(to note, I do hit my max bound spirit cap fairly often, and even my max foci cap I've hit with low force sustaining foci), while intuition does not increasing your sorcery or conjuring. Intuition is still a useful attribute, it's useful for everyone, but wanting a good logic or charisma is not niche.

So how about you actually read peoples posts now.

[Ol' Scratch]

Oh, I read it. It's just the sheer stupidity of that particular line demanded a reply.

That said, what you mentioned are all indirect increases to a magician's arsenal, especially since they're rarely if ever encountered as an actual limitation. And that's all they are, limitations. No direct boost whatsoever. The direct boost to Assensing, however, is a very real, very useful, and very often encountered aspect of being a magician. Intuition also continues to be ridiculously useful all around, both in combat and outside of it, and not just in niche environments such as social encounters or... whatever worthless things Logic is good for.

And hell, even with those niche rolls, Intuition is still a really strong attribute. You can't say the same about Logic. Well you can, but you'd be wrong.

[Ascalaphus]

My, my, isn't everyone even-tempered today.

Logic's usefulness hinges a lot on whether the GM uses the Attribute+Skill optional rule for hacking; otherwise it's a bit of a niche Attribute, used in few important skill. On the other hand, it's easier to raise than Intuition. I think the foci count could come into play, if you like them a lot;
- Health focus for Increase Reflexes
- Centering Focus
- Power Focus
- Manipulation Focus (lot of sustained spells such as Levitate)
- more Health Focus for Increase [Attribute]
... but it's unusual to need more than four or so.

Charisma's main application for mages is to easily double as a Face (or, in the case of Pornomancers, that was perhaps the idea all along). Spirit count is a side benefit; I don't think many people need more than two or three bound spirits.

[PresentPresence]

If only there were a magical tradition that was Will + Agility...

All Logic traditions can do this with the Mind Over Matter adept power if you're willing to spend the 1.5 PP for it. It's probably the best use for the power, and it's great for magical infiltrators.

[Caadium]

All Logic traditions can do this with the Mind Over Matter adept power if you're willing to spend the 1.5 PP for it. It's probably the best use for the power, and it's great for magical infiltrators.

That is if you are willing to do a Mystic Adept and give up the Astral (or at least pay another PP for Perception).

If someone is trying to get the absolute best bang-for-their buck numbers wise I don't see giving up Astral and losing magic from spell casting as a viable trade-off for letting your Logic points double as Agility.

This setup really best fits a theme character. Something like a Zoroastrian Magical Threats Hunter or something.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That is if you are willing to do a Mystic Adept and give up the Astral (or at least pay another PP for Perception).

If someone is trying to get the absolute best bang-for-their buck numbers wise I don't see giving up Astral and losing magic from spell casting as a viable trade-off for letting your Logic points double as Agility.

This setup really best fits a theme character. Something like a Zoroastrian Magical Threats Hunter or something.

Now that is an interesting Character concept... Hmmmmm... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[phlapjack77]

All Logic traditions can do this with the Mind Over Matter adept power if you're willing to spend the 1.5 PP for it. It's probably the best use for the power, and it's great for magical infiltrators.

Yes, I guess that's true. I was sort of tongue-in-cheek wishing for a tradition like this, as the ultimate cheesy set up of best options.

Mind-Over-Matter is a separate cheese factory in and of itself, imo (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[darthmord]

Yes, I guess that's true. I was sort of tongue-in-cheek wishing for a tradition like this, as the ultimate cheesy set up of best options.

Mind-Over-Matter is a separate cheese factory in and of itself, imo (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

What book is that power in?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What book is that power in?

Mind-over-Matter is in War!